_GOTOBOTTOM
Ships by Class/Type: Military Small Craft
For topics on PT boats, landing craft, Vietnam riverine, etc.
Gordon, How Goes the Tango?
95bravo
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Posted: Monday, May 16, 2005 - 03:39 PM UTC
Hey Gordon, when do we get to see some more progress pics?

I was watching a program about PT boats and then started thinking about riverine forces which in turn made me wonder about your project.

It's best not to ask how I arrive at some of my thoughts... Too many hits to the head I guess.

Wind Blown
Steve
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 03:42 PM UTC
Howdy Steven,

I am humbled that someone here remembered I was working on a Tango boat......thx

To answer your friendly inquery, I will tell you this; I have not been lazy about my efforts in the least bit. I have in fact been working on the project while at the same time indulging a long-suppressed desire to use some old, time-worn Gerry Anderson-esque maquette making techniques.
I've got one side of the new, lengthened LCM hull just about finished, and am working on getting the starboard side of the hull reconfigured to match up with the port side......
Just as soon as I get to the point where I can feel like there' something to actually 'look' at, I will indeed post pics.

As an aside, and a bit of a confession of sorts, I must share with you that I am also working on a couple of 'Studio', or museum scale miniatures of the Civil War era Union Navy ship, the USS Lafayette and the USS Choctaw. (this, in response to my local museum)
These are being scratch built from Basswood armatures 'skinned' with both Plastruct sheet stock, and 'to-scale' real wood deck planking. Originally I was planning on building them in 1/72nd scale, but have been refocused towards 1/87th scale (HO scale) instead, by other ACW aficionados who dabble in model RR'ing. And just in case it wissed right by you.......a 260' ft Civil War Ironcald USS Choctaw in 1/72nd scale, works out to just under 4-feet long!/////
I would share photos of my progress on this project as well, but I really don't think anyone here would be interested to tell you the truth.....if you are, PM me, and I'll be glad to add you to my growing list of 'Ironclad' modeler fans.

warm regards,

Tread.

Oh.......BTW....it came as a bit of a surprise to, for the first time, see a thread featuring my 'real' name in the header...... .......thx for that Steve......
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 03:46 PM UTC
Gordo, can't wait to see the progress. You got me interrested in building a Tango boat again. I acquired another Trumpeter LCM3 kit to convert. Looking forward to seeing your progress. Need more info for the side sponson boxes, I thought that the sides were the same as the standard LCM6.

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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 03:59 PM UTC
Howdy Gino,

Glad you're still interested amigo With your talent, this conversion could really shine!

Regarding the side applique floatation sponsons, these were actually added in response to the needed requirement of additional floatation to support several versions of the 'Nam era ATC. The refueler version needed it, as did the (H) helo pad variant. From my (hopefully) to-scale measurements, the added floatation 'bulges' added approximately 2.5 ft to the base width of the vessel. I have been referring to the bulges as 'applique', when in fact they were a true retrofit. Meaning, they were part of the hull itself, with no seam marks to give away their application. Hence, I have been performing exhaustive, and repeated applications of Tammy putty to 'blend' them in........
I will try to put up a photo of at least one side of my progress tomorrow........just don't be too tough on me........

Tread.
mother
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 04:40 PM UTC
Gordon come on...I'm interested and i'm sure many others as well in your progress. Yeah it did get quiet but I think thats because everyone interested is getting thier resources and research together. Just as Gino said, and myself i'm doing the same. I'm waiting for a full resin hull, only paid $20.00 + $10 for shipping. Once I recive it i'd planned on giving you a call for some help on the side sponson boxes, and a few more pics. Can't wait to get started
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 07:03 AM UTC
Howdy fellas,

mother, I'm just teasin' you all about the 'interest' thing.....no worries.

I thought I'd post a pic to show something of what I'm doing....this photo was taken a week or so ago, I'm now working on the port side floatation sponson.
Underneath all that primer is 10 (ten) pieces of individually cut layers of Evergreen sheet cut in a diminishing outline style.
This style of 'prop' making was used by early Gerry Anderson prop-makers to build up the form of some of his pieces.
I have to tell you, it is an exceptionally tedious process. But it builds an exceptionally strong 'Master'. So, at this point I can create a Tango hull master mould so I can make another one of my Tango Boats if I want to, and avoid all of the work that went into this so far.......

Anyway, here's the pic.



I know, I know.....not much to look at, but I thought II'd at least throw something on the table........

Tread.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 10:10 AM UTC
I see, the whole side is widened by about 1.25 feet. It looks like the side is simply pushed out with same profile as the original hull. Wouldn't it be easier to make a hollow, box-like structure to add to each side as opposed to laminating sheet styrene? Or, cut the hull sides off and add the extra width with a sheet styrene box between the outer hull and inner hull? Don't get me wrong, yours looks great, just throwing out some other ideas on how to widen the hull.

Just thought of another idea. How about carving balsa wood or foam sponsons to shape, and then covering them with thin sheet styrene, or using them as masters for vac-formed sponsons.
95bravo
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Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 06:41 AM UTC
Gordon,

That's going to be pretty good sized. If I'm counting the squares correctly and they are 1 inch squares, it'll be about 17 inches long by almost 6 inches wide..correct?
Now are the hinges to the ramp scratch built as well or were they from the kit?

How tall will it be measuring from the bottom of the hull?

One of these days you guys and your scratch building will force me to take the plunge and try it. There's so many things I'd like to have an example of but requires it to be scratch built.

Can't wait to see the next installment!
Steve
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Posted: Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:04 AM UTC
95Bravo,
Your measurments are about right. This will be a big one. Side walls are about 3 inches from bottom to top. Above the deckline will be a canvas roof about another inch up, then a large helo deck up front and a 2 story superstructure in the rear. A very impressive model in 1/35 scale indeed.

The hinges are in the kit that way as well.
95bravo
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Posted: Friday, May 20, 2005 - 05:13 AM UTC
Yeah I think it would be really awesome with a 1/35th Huey setting on the pad.

Since I'm at work, I don't have the link handy, but the Swift Boat Sailors Association has a two volume video of home movies taken in Vietnam. Eventhough it has been produced by the Swifties, there's a considerable amount of footage of the Brown Water stuff from the Delta. I also recall some footage of Navy Huey gunships and Broncos blasting away at some site along the river. Even, some footage of a frigate heading up river!

(I think that's what they're called...if I made some of you navy guys cringe..sorry..I'm still learning what is what.)

There's some really cool footage of a Helo towing a pontoon barge they used for mine sweeping or something along those lines...man would that make an awesome Dio.

Anyway, they're a bit pricey, they're $25.00 dollars a tape but they have footage you'll see no place else and I've seen both of the tapes when they made the rounds through the association before they began selling them. IMHO, they're worth the price.

I'll post the link here later this evening if anyone is interested.

Take care everyone and may you have a safe and happy weekend.
Steve
95bravo
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 03:52 AM UTC
Here is the URL. If you're not wanting to purcahse the VHS tape, I was told that they will be putting this on DVD sometime in the near future. Which would be perfect for still captures.

http://www.swiftboats.org/clothing_and_accessories.htm

Best Wishes
Steve
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 06:51 AM UTC
Howdy fellas,

Thx for checkin' out my Tango progress....

Gino said..." Wouldn't it be easier to make a hollow, box-like structure to add to each side as opposed to laminating sheet styrene? Or, cut the hull sides off and add the extra width with a sheet styrene box between the outer hull and inner hull? "....

To answer your question directly, yes it would. If I may elaborate on your point?
Because I needed to maintain the original hull side 'plan view' profile, I originally planned to use a sign foam and just bend it up against the side of the hull. But I wasn't entirely happy with the forming properties of the foam. So I then was going to switch to three sheets of Basswood glued to the hull sides. Since I am quite comfortable working in this medium (wood), ,I felt it would be the easiest and the most accurate way to form the hull extensions.
But then, in my 'funny', self-flagelating way, I wanted to at least try this old method I'd read about on some Sci-Fi website regarding the old Gerry Anderson production studio techniques.....ya see, I'm the type of crazy person who feels that you shouldn't comment (in an advisory capacity) on anything unless you've actually done it. Soooooooo, hence the wrestling match with the 'diminishing outline' method of mauqette-making............

Anyway, it's almost done, and to be honest I feel pretty good about the finished piece. It now weighs about 6 pounds, but it's solid as a rock!......

To the measurements:

The original LCM (3) hull width was approx. 14' wide, and it's hull height being just under 7' at the main deck plate as you can see in this schematic...


The lengthened, or 'stretched' version of the LCM (3) was the LCM (6) which was lengthened by adding 6' amidships, or right in the belly of the troop compartment as shown here by an unretouched photo of the newly configured LCM (6) version during sea trials. You can see where they added the new section by the unpainted section in the middle of the ship.......


Now, the LCM (6), in this hull configuration was used by the French in Indochina and Vietnam for quite awhile. Infact some of the earlier configurations (pre-floatation sponson addition) are very interesting indeed.
Then the Americans arrived on scene and continued to use the boat in this original form. But, in typical US fashion, the quickly increased 'scope of work' that was being required of the craft demanded some changes. One of the first changes made was an increase in the 'floatability' of the boat to handle substantially increased weight.
The addition of floatation sponsons was the answer they came up with. These added 'saddlebags' increased the overall width of the LCM (6) hull to a total of approx. 17' 6". Again, this is pre-bar-armour, and the additional 'skinning' that some boat crews applied.
The new dimensions can be seen here......



At first I thought the added floatation 'sponsons' were exactly that, added, but after further investigation I found that they were much closer to a true retrofit, than an applique-style installation. A good picture illustrating this, and showing just how much the sponsons expanded the hull width can be seen here, with one of the Tango boats suspended from a crane..........


And finally, an overhead shot of one of the Tango boats being assembled before deployment again shows the upper deck, and the increased width of the hull compared to the original LCM (3) that it was based upon......



With any luck all of this ramble helps those interested in better understanding both the boats themselves, and at least part of it's evolution.......

Tread.

Oh, and in this last photo, the metal canvas supports you see that are above the troop compartment , are the 'early' type, before they switched over to the ballistic covers...
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 07:28 AM UTC
O.K., sound like a good time. Thanks for the further explanation and measurements. They help a lot.
95bravo
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 09:36 AM UTC
Gordon,

I'm not sure if I or anyone else has brought this up, without going back through the posts, but you are planning on writing up an article on this build...correct? If not, I would encourage you to do so. I feel that this was a very informative post and given the amount of research, the complexity of the build, a full article would be the perfect finish to this project. I'm really intrigued with the technique you are using and would like to learn more.

If you haven't, I hope that you will consider it. I think it would be a crying shame if you didn't.

Awaiting the next installment
Steve
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 10:10 AM UTC
Howdy fellas,

Gino, I appreciate your added methodology on potential techniques for creating the 'sponsons'. Apparently great minds think alike, or, at least one great mind (you) and-a-half(me) think alike.....

Steve, thx for your input, and supportive words of endorsement, but I hadn't really planned on an article. Mainly because there didn't seem to be that much interest. That is, except a handful of members. But your point makes me think of other homes for this type of "Article".......thx.

Just so you are aware (and I wasn't going to mention this), I've been building both a Tango boat hull and a Monitor hull at the same time. The Monitor hull is taking a wee bit more effort because I had to sculpt the bow out of Makin's Clay to get it right (a completely different story I assure you). On that hull I did in fact use laminated Basswood (actually, Basswood on one side, and Balsa on the other).
If nothing else I could write up an Article about the 'pros and cons' of shaping these differing material's.....but then of course, I'm sure there are sites that have already "did that , done that, have the T-shirt" kinda thing.......

I did use a rather unique technique IMHO using dried PAM oven spray as a mould release agent.....but then we'd be getting into yet another "story"......so I'll kindly spare you.

There really is a bit of work involved on the research side of a thing like this, because one of the 'wee' items that would generally be overlooked is the interelationship between the troop compartment and the new main deck arrangement, including the main wheelhouse position...

oops........eerrrrrr, sorry.......gettin' long-winded again aren't I?

geeeeeez......sry

Tread.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 10:51 AM UTC
Gordo,
I think an article would be great. I am actually copying your explanations from here and throwing them on a word doc for my build. Keep giving info, my man. Great stuff.
95bravo
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Posted: Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 02:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gordo,
I think an article would be great. I am actually copying your explanations from here and throwing them on a word doc for my build. Keep giving info, my man. Great stuff.



See!

I'm not the only one who feels this way! I think there is greater interest in this subject than you are giving credit. If you do an article, I really hope that you'll consider doing it here. I think you'd be surprise at the interest.it would generate here.

Besides, I'm too lazy to chase it around on another web site and I dropped my subscription to FSM because they keep rehashing the same old stuff.
 _GOTOTOP