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General Ship Modeling: Creating Ship Dioramas
Topics on building dioramas are grouped here
M.A.S. 568 4a Serie
AlanL
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Posted: Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 06:33 AM UTC
Hi Al,

Italeri have a 20mm horse drawn Breda



I'm using on for the back of my LRDG Chevy



Nice little kit.

BTW do you have any other references for the fore and aft cabins? I have a mind to add some more basic detail below .

Thanks

Alan
alross2
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Posted: Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 09:34 AM UTC
Here's the engineroom



Al
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Posted: Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 01:26 PM UTC
This is a very interesting and informative project. I believe what I like most about it is how other folks other than the builder are providing info for the project.

I just like the friendliness of the whole thing. Keep it up Shipmates!!!

AlanL
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Posted: Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 09:57 PM UTC
Morning Jim,

Thanks for dropping in. When it comes to boats I need all the help I can get

It might seem odd painting the deck at this stage butI felt it would be easier to layout the stripes now rather then work around all the fittings later.

Paint wise I've used:

Tamiya FX7 Flat Red and Vellejo 70820 Office White
For the deck Tamiya XF53 Nuetral Grey
For the Upper deck parts Tamiya Royal Light Grey XF80.

In the photographs most of the upper deck fittings look almost white but I assume that is the strong sunlight of the Med. Anyway these seem fairly close but thoughts appreciated.

I've started to add some of the forward deck fittings. Parts E12 don't seem to be mentioned on the instructions, unless I missed them but are the central supports for the hydrophones.

Part 21d is the lower cabin instrument control deck. Anyone know if this would have been a nice wood colour?

The aft cabin top fits together fairly well, again there are some ejection marks you might like to remove from underneath before joining the parts.



















If anyone else has any references for the fore and aft cabins that would be useful. Also what was their function, mess deck, sleeping acommodation??? The drawings AL posted would seem to suggest Ammo stowage.

Thanks

Alan
AlanL
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Posted: Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 12:59 AM UTC
Hi Guys,

A bit more work.

Added the starboard side fitting to the bow, still a couple to do. Added a few of the stren deck fitting to. Some of these have very tiny sink marks and I could probably have save my self a bit fo time by painting them in advance. Also fitted the front to pulllies that take the rudder cablle. These have a slight seem that will need clean off. This is a general point for all the fittings.









Next I'll clean up and paint the hatches and then have a think about ptting the porthole glass and window glass in.


Build note: When you remove parts F24 Step 10 cut well away from the part. The levers on the fittings are very fragile. (Forward Control levers)

Al

alross2
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Posted: Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 06:52 AM UTC
Sheezh! Want, want, want... Here are the inboards for the forward section:





Most motor torpedo boats of this period were set up pretty much the same. On this group, there were three watertight bulkheads separating the forepeak (mostly used for storage, rope, chain, etc.), crew quarters, and officer quarters. The radio room is to port in the officer quarters and the head is to starboard.

Al
AlanL
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Posted: Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 08:23 AM UTC
Hi Al,

Many thanks, that gives me a much better idea of how things looked. I might be able to fashion a couple of basic cabins from those and it might be fun trying even if they don't work out.

Cheers

Alan
AlanL
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Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 04:03 AM UTC
Hi folks,

Well as Al kindly provided me with some drawings, I though I better have a go and add some more interior detail. I have to say I was at a bit of a loss as to how to approach this, but I've started with a basic frame on which I can build. I set some runners around the top and bottom of the boat, so that I could get a height to build to without interferring with the fit of the upper deck and created a basic frame around the front cabin area. Still more work to do here and at the bow but I might have something I can work on.

I'll do the same with the rear engine area and who knows might come across some plastic car engine I can add in for fun. This will nto be a job spec effort the idea is to creat that illlusion that draws the eye into the boat and makes it a bit more interesting, plus it's always fun to experiment .

I've added some detail to the control panel but no decals yet.

Does anyone make a selecion of handles that might be used on piping? That would be handy.

Anyway efforts fo far. This will very much be a make it up as you go effort







The frame for the torpedos could do with a spacer at each end to help the parts align, but hopefully it will sit correctly when fitted.



Al
AlanL
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Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 06:03 PM UTC
Hi folks,

A couple of questions. Would anyone know if the planking on the cabin decks ran port to starboard or bow to stern? Also what height would the cabins have been (floor to upper deck)?
Thanks

Al
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Posted: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 09:52 PM UTC
Hi Al

Don't know if this is helpful, but having see the inside of boats of similar construction. The deck planking generally runs fore & aft, These type of boats have transverse framing, (The main structure is made of transverse frames attached along the keel, with longitudenal stringers supporting the hull skinning, and aiding rigidity) and deck planking is secured to the floors on the said transverse frames.

Build looking good so far, Following with much interest

Si
AlanL
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Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 03:41 AM UTC
Hi Simon,

Thanks, that's what I was thinking hence the frame port to starboard.

OK one query solved and another one to follow. Would anyone have a picture or the specification of the engines. I know what type they were but I'd like a look at one to see if I might find something suitable from the wingy things or cars possibly in 1/32 scale.

I've googled but nothing so far.

Anyway, I shall get on with the forward planking and see where that leads.

Al
alross2
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Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 03:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi folks,

A couple of questions. Would anyone know if the planking on the cabin decks ran port to starboard or bow to stern? Also what height would the cabins have been (floor to upper deck)?
Thanks

Al


Arrrrrrrr, ye scurvy dog; I'll have ye flogged!! Look at the plans I uploaded.

Look at the inboard profile. Essentially, you're standing on the centerline of the keel looking to the port side. Notice that the deck in the officer's quarters is slighly lower than that in the crew's quarters. Now, look at the two cross sections through these compartments. They have what look like a series of steps going up each side, especially in the crew's quarters. The narrowest portion in the center corresponds with the two decks in the side view. In the crew's quarters, these planks have a space between them, much like the planks on a patio deck on some homes. This allows the water to drain into the bilges (where it is pumped out) and prevents it pooling on the deck. The next "step" is the base for the settee berth (probably plywood or wide planks), while that above it is the seat of the settee berth. The two hinged pipe berth frames, with chain supports from the deck beams, are the next two "steps. The curved line to which the chains are attached is a deck beam. The overall height of the interior space is the area between the top of the central deck and the underside of the deck planking

In the officer's quarters, you'll see there are three lines running across the central floor. On the actual plans, there is a faint x running from corner to corner on each. This usually symbolizes a void below and often indicates that the panel is removable. Most likely, these four deck panels were plywood or wide planks and removable to gain access to the bilges.

Al

alross2
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Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 04:16 AM UTC
Isotta Fraschini ASM 183:




Al
AlanL
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Posted: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 04:46 AM UTC
Thanks again Al. Looking at them and knowing what they mean are slightly different to the layman. Knowing what they mean helps a lot.

Just in the nick of time too lol, lol.

Cheers

Alan

Edit,

Oh BTW Al, I do realise the height is from floor to roof lol, lol, I was just interested to know if there was a know measurement to judge how far off I was, but it won't make any great difference in the scheme of things as it will all be pretty much by the Mk I eyeball lol, lol.

I lifted the height of the crew compartment slightly and I've cut the planking for the Officers cabin which I'll scribe some wood effects on. If you look at the cross beams the Officers cabin will actually start on the 2nd beam running forward as the 1st sits under the pilot cabin.

I estimate the central bulkhead to be about 5inches from the bow of the boat, just past the forward hatch. Making a ladder should be fun.

I shall return with more questions later lol, lol.

Al

AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 03:48 AM UTC
Hi folks,

Here's how things stand on top.

You'll need to mark the forward hatches as they fit a specific way, In general the parts require little clean up except the removal of some ejection marks on the underside if you choose.





I'd done a bit of work on the hull fitted the propellers and side stabliser(?) thingi. A bit ptremature really.

On the inside I've fitted the officer quarters deck. It has a bit more of a slope to it than I thought, should really be flat but no surprising as I used the lines of the hull as a guide lol, lol.

The bit that I thnk will be the hardest is the bulk head, haven't really worked out how to do that yet. On the access hatched well I haven't worked that out yet either lol.

I did put in a small step up to the crew quaarters, but over all I'm thinking I should have placed the decks at a lower elall around. Still for all that will get seen it's not a big deal and it's been an interesting experiment so far.





People can use this as a how NOT to do it.

The two pencil lines show roughly where the actual crew quarters start.

Al

AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 06:41 AM UTC
Well after looking at the deck for a while I've taken some remedial action to level it out. Just cut through the side supports and put in a larger supporting beam under the starboard end to level it out. Fortunately, this doesn't interfer with the moulded on cabin so all should be well.

Sometimes you can live with things and sometimes you just have to fix them.

Al
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Would the internals of the cabine be in white?

Does anyone have a picture of any other parts of the internals, In thinking of what lies under the forward skylights/hatch.
Al



White is a common interior color for small craft.

These are two sections looking forward, in the 4th series boats, from the original Baglietto plans



This is a color rendering from the Italian naval camo book by Bagnasco and Brescia:


The colors are representative. I don't use Tamiya colors, so can't provide any similarities. In the book, the colors are somewhat like FLOQUIL Reefer Gray and SP Lettering Gray.

Al Ross




Hi Al,

the top diagram. Is what looks like a door, the side of the locker? If so then am I right in thnking there was no connecting door between the crew and officers cabins??

Thanks

Al
alross2
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 03:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

the top diagram. Is what looks like a door, the side of the locker? If so then am I right in thnking there was no connecting door between the crew and officers cabins??



Yup. Looks like the locker was rather fancy - paneled like a nice interior door on a house. There was no access between compartments. Access to the crew's quarters was down the ladder on the aft side of the hatch. Access to the officer's quarters was through the companion (doorway) just to the left of the helm (steering wheel). However, there is an error in the kit in this area. I thought the companionway looked very short and spent some time looking at the plans. There are two steps down to the officer's quarters beginning at the aft end of the helmsman's grating. The opening for the steps is as wide as the companion opening and the bottom step ends at the inside face of the bulkhead. Part #24b is the grab rail for these steps.



Al
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 07:16 PM UTC
Thanks Al,

I thoguht steps might be needed. I'm not sure how easy it will be to match a bulk head to the kit part there.

Were the fuel tanks either side of the Helm and what if anything was stored in the stern at the back of the engine room?

Made the central bulk head, some seats and the sides for the locker last night. Would the seats have been padded or just plain board? Haven't yet thought of a plan for the access hatches in the floor, but I might just scribe the idea of some separate secions in the central 3 planks.

Thanks again.

Alan
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:27 PM UTC
Hi Guys,

The option was wash the car or build some more. Needless to say which one won out

I've added the stairs to the officers cabin, added some bracing and fixed in the central bulk head.







I don't know about detail on the locker door but I'll give it a go.

Were there stowage lockers under the officers seats? Can't see any in the crew compartment but not sure on the officers side of life.

Am I also correct in thinkng there is a rifle rack in the officers quarters?

To fix a rear bulkhead will mean doing it in separate parts and fitting it to the existing helmsmans bit, or leaveing access so the helmsmans part slots in, that might be easier than trying to make a complete one and working it arouund the existing structure. Something to occupy the rest of the morning !!

Al
alross2
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Posted: Friday, February 04, 2011 - 12:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Were the fuel tanks either side of the Helm and what if anything was stored in the stern at the back of the engine room?



Nope. The fuel tanks are aft and are large cylinders. The aft-most compartment is the lazarette and was essentially an access to the rudder/steering assemblies. On some types of boats, there was often a shelf with a vice, so it served as a small workshop.

I just got to work, so I won't have access to my plans until tonight.

Al
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, February 04, 2011 - 12:46 AM UTC
Hi Al, Thanks,

Just constructing the rear bulk head and the locker. The rear bulk head is tricky and will need some fillers due to the shape of kit, but progress is being made, in a fashion

Al
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, February 04, 2011 - 01:09 AM UTC
This is the locker, size, just a best guess. The rea bulkheads are fixed in and you can see how much the helm overhangs at the back.



I've add two small blocks to the side of the stairs, these butt up against the new rear bulkhead but this still leaves an odd shaped gap to be filled in.





I cut the setees at 6ft but I shall have to reduce them to at least 5ft to fit in the bog and the radio which I think just sat on a shelf? (the radio that is not the bog lol, lol)

If I've rear the drawings correctly the setee sat behind the locker.

Cheers

Al
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, February 04, 2011 - 03:07 AM UTC
Hi Guys,

I thought the locker look a bit big so narrowed it down a bit and fitted the two settees.





Another question Was the radio walled off as in the diagrams? Or have I mis-read that?

Thanks

Alan
alross2
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Posted: Friday, February 04, 2011 - 06:56 AM UTC
The radio was out in the open on a shelf. What looks like a wall in the top view is simply the end of the settee berth. If you look at the top view of the engineroom, you'll see four large circles just aft of the engineroom aft bulkhead. Those are the fuel tanks. The tank beside the charthouse on the port side is probably potable water. Usually, plans this detailed have text identifying the various components, type/size of wood used, etc. For some reason, these do not.

Al