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Ships by Class/Type: Military Small Craft
For topics on PT boats, landing craft, Vietnam riverine, etc.
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Vosper 363-378 Annapolis Yacht Yard
awiskerke
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Posted: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 - 12:04 PM GMT+7
I wonder in which respects the 1/35 Italeri kit should be converted to build e.g. MTB 375. I know that these particular vessels did not have portholes in the hull and that they had three rudders . I also noted that two vents were added onto the rear deck and of course an Oerlikon on the foredeck. I know that the engine exhausts were also different but I don't know what they looked like, what their exact location was and whether or not there were Elco style mufflers on the transon. I also wonder if there were three seperate rudder cavitation plates or just a single one. I also assume that the pilot house had been turned into a proper chart house, that is, the steering wheel and controls had been deleted. I wonder if there is a snag somewhere because so far I have not come across pics of the Italeri kit converted into a model of Vosper 363-378 .
Thanks in advance.

Arjan
awiskerke
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Posted: Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 04:24 PM GMT+7
I found a pic today of former MTB 378 (72'6") in Italian service which seems to show two protrusions at the transom. To me this is proof that this series of craft had the same type of rudder/muffler layout as the better-known Vosper 70'(American built) craft in Italian service. In other words, I assume that 375 and 376 also had the Elco type mufflers and single cavitation plate.



I found the pic on this interesting Italian site:
http://www.marinaiditalia.com/public/uploads/2010_08_14.pdf

Arjan
Longshanks8
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Posted: Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 06:45 PM GMT+7
Hi Arjan,

I've been through what info I possess with very little results.
Best I can come up with is a couple of pictures

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05idx.htm

Scroll down to bottom right hand corner

Good luck with your search for information, I would be great to see this built

Kev
awiskerke
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Posted: Friday, October 17, 2014 - 04:34 AM GMT+7
Thanks Kevin, the navsource site is probably the most useful site for pt/mbt fans. This site shows that PT 723 and PT 728 (both 70' Vosper designs)were also built at the Annapolis yard. The former is well-documented, see the drawings:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05723.htm

And so is the latter, a survivor of which numerous colour pics can be found on the Web. Both these boats had the Elco style mufflers and a single cavitation plate, so to me it only seems logical that MTB 375-378 shared these features. Anyway, I'm starting my build of MTB 375 incorporating these features. No doubt some pics or info will now soon turn up to prove me wrong .

Regards,

Arjan
allycat
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Posted: Saturday, October 18, 2014 - 01:59 AM GMT+7
The line diagrams on Arjan's link

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05idx.htm

remind me very much of the Revell 1/72(?) Vosper MTB kit.

http://oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/Revell%20H335-200%20VosperVG.JPG

Tom
awiskerke
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Posted: Saturday, October 18, 2014 - 03:54 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

The line diagrams on Arjan's link

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05idx.htm

remind me very much of the Revell 1/72(?) Vosper MTB kit.

http://oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/Revell%20H335-200%20VosperVG.JPG

Tom



Hi Tom, Indeed I happen to have the model right in front of me now. I know it has its faults but it helps me to get a rough idea. What is also helpful is the beautiful work by Mr Turbo Squid (a 70" Vosper built by Jacobs):

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/jacobs-r-vosper-mtbs-3d-model/583099

I started filling in the portholes yesterday and I made a new styrene transom. Today I hope to build the mufflers (I'm going to copy the ones on the Italeri Elco).

Regards,

Arjan
awiskerke
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Posted: Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 10:08 AM GMT+7
I have been working on the mufflers but I'm getting a bit confused. Especially the bit immediately below the butterfly valves puzzles me (where the exhaust pipe runs into the muffler itself). I have managed to find only one pic of the mufflers in question and unfortunately it's not clear enough to answer my questions:



The 3d-artist I mentioned before made this image of the area in question:



I hope someone can tell me whether I can rely on this image (the connection between the exhaust pipe and muffler looks a bit strange).Nevertheless, on the whole the 3d images appear to be quite accurate. Of course additional pics or drawings of the muffler arrangement would be most welcome.

Arjan

Longshanks8
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Posted: Sunday, October 19, 2014 - 11:41 AM GMT+7
Hi Arjan,

If you pm me your email address I will copy and send plans of PT723, licence built Vosper for USSR if it will help

Kev
awiskerke
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Posted: Monday, October 20, 2014 - 06:42 AM GMT+7
Much obliged Kevin ! I will post some pics when I have finished the transom.

Regards,

Arjan
awiskerke
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Posted: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 08:22 AM GMT+7
Some pics of my progress so far. I built the mufflers from plastic because I intend to make an rc model. Constructing them from flattened 6mm brass tube would have been easier but I felt they would be too heavy (weight is an important consideration for an rc model).






The next step would be to add the vertical exhaust pipes (that end up below the water line) to the mufflers and install the single cavitation plate. I assume the plate in this pic is an original one and it shows that the plate is curved in the middle. The two brackets on both sides of the middle rudder are noticeably lower than the ones on the left and right:



I already started making the 6 brackets, drilling out the four holes in these parts is a bit of a pain

I'm still not sure though if I will continue with this lend-lease conversion, perhaps I will simply drill out the portholes I filled in and rip out the transom. I must say this conversion is much more difficult and time consuming than I had imagined. There are lots of differences with the British built Vospers e.g. walls and a door were added to the rear of the wheel house but it's especially the rear deck area that requires some daunting surgery.

Arjan

Longshanks8
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Posted: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 11:51 AM GMT+7
Hi Arjan,

You've done a cracking job of those mufflers!

If you do decide to change the base model I hope you will continue to post

Cheers Kev
awiskerke
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Posted: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 01:36 PM GMT+7
Thanks Kevin, I will certainly continue this project for the time being. I happened across some nice pics this week, terrific wake! The first pic was taken in the Adriatic, don't know about the second perhaps it's the same boat:




Some nice shots of the Annapolis Vospers:





Final pic is very useful because it shows the louvres in the rear vents. Probably best to make a resin cast of the Italeri louvres to reproduce these parts.

Regards,

Arjan
xrz100
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Posted: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 - 06:46 PM GMT+7
Hello Arjan,

som have put the exhaust already in 3D printing at shapeways: https://www.shapeways.com/search?q=vosper.

Maybe an alternative when you need parts that are not available from other kits or desire proper fitting.

Robert and I recently finished our journey for the MickeMouse vents on the german Schnellboot, it took only 10 attempts to reproduce the shape from 4 available pictures....

Bis denne

Christian
awiskerke
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Posted: Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 09:24 AM GMT+7
Hi Christian,

I also provided a link to the 3d images ("Turbo Squid") in the above, I'm not sure who has the copyright. Anyway I think I'll stick to old school modelling for the time being although it would be nice if someone produced a twin Oerlikon on a 3d printer (hint )

Some pics of my progress, of course strips and bolt detail still has to be added:




Regards,

Arjan


TAFFY3
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Posted: Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 11:27 AM GMT+7
Nice work. I've had thoughts of doing a similar project and you are providing inspiration as well as temptation. Looking forward to seeing more. Al (PS) Kinda wish Italeri had decided on doing one of this series of boats instead of issuing the one used on the St.Nazaire Raid. While MTB 74 is a historically significant boat, I think it will have a rather limited appeal.
awiskerke
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Posted: Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 01:01 PM GMT+7
Hi Al,
The AP Vospers were probably too elusive a subject for the Italeri people. No reliable drawings available, nor any pics showing the stern as far as I know. I believe you have a copy of "Mediterranean MTB's at war", are there any useful pics of the AP Vospers in this book apart from the well-known ones?
There are still some open questions. I think that, just like the rudders, the outer prop shafts were also further inboard than the ones on the standard British built 72'6" Vosper.

Regards,

Arjan
TAFFY3
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Posted: Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 09:55 PM GMT+7
[Quoted] I believe you have a copy of "Mediterranean MTB's at war", are there any useful pics of the AP Vospers in this book apart from the well-known ones?

Sorry. No, I don't have that book. I mostly used Squadron's "in Action" book and anything that I could find on-line as references. Sometimes I stray from strict historical accuracy during a build. I built my Vosper as MTB 77. I knew that it mounted a 'requisitioned' Italian Breda 20mm cannon on the foredeck, which I added. I don't know if it ever mounted the two twin .303 Vickers 'K' MG's on the TT's, but I liked the way they looked, so I added them to my boat. I try to be as accurate as I can, but I will employ a little artistic license on occasion. Al
awiskerke
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Posted: Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 10:10 PM GMT+7
Thanks Al, perhaps it was someone else (Al Ross maybe?) who has the book I mentioned. While trawling the internet I came across the February 1943 issue of the "Motor Boating" magazine. It contains a lot of advertisements from various companies who contributed in some way or other to the construction of the Lend-lease Vospers:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=snrOMFbb-JYC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=Vosper+Victory+Annapolis+Yacht+Yard&source=bl&ots=YuWtUwKr3A&sig=_96vIZZSGkhUcYM9HI7qE2mKg5U&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=WwdNVNSQFdHKaIG1gcAG&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vosper%20Victory%20Annapolis%20Yacht%20Yard&f=false

Some examples of these adverts:









Regards,

Arjan
alross2
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2014 - 12:23 PM GMT+7
Arjan, I looked through Mediterranean MTBs and did not see any photos that would be useful in determining the transom details. There is a great, but often published, photo of 378, but it's a broadside.

Al Ross
awiskerke
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 01:01 AM GMT+7
Thanks for your reply Al, this means I won't purchase the book in question. It's not available in Holland and quite expensive and useful pics would be my main incentive. I ploughed through some other issues of the Motorboating magazine and I found this Annapolis advert showing one of the vessels I'm looking for:



Another one I like:



Of course there are countless adverts relating to the Elco PT. I like this one best although I think the camo scheme is a fantasy one



I think I'm going to write a mail to the Herreshoff naval museum. Perhaps they have some pics showing the transom.

Regards,

Arjan

TAFFY3
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 03:00 AM GMT+7
[Quoted] Of course there are countless adverts relating to the Elco PT. I like this one best although I think the camo scheme is a fantasy one.

Not a fantasy Arjan, a special scheme applied to PT-196 by the Elco plant in Bayonne,NJ. There are several photos on page 18 of Squadron's revised "PT Boats In Action" (#4034), and I found these two on-line.





Don't know what colors were used, but it would be interesting to find out. PT-196 was the last boat of the original production run (103-196). Al
awiskerke
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 04:26 AM GMT+7
Thanks Al, that's a truly tempting camo scheme ( I still have an Italeri PT 109 kit in my stash ). The ad mentions green(the usual base colour I believe), the wavy lines definitely seem darker than the shark's white teeth so grey or yellow perhaps?

Regards,

Arjan
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 06:34 AM GMT+7
I've been admonished for saying the stripes were a green. I have been TOLD (in a scolding manner - as if I should know better) they were gray.

POINT OF FACT: Vanderbilt named the boat (196) the GREEN DRAGON.




Quoted Text

Thanks Al, that's a truly tempting camo scheme ( I still have an Italeri PT 109 kit in my stash ). The ad mentions green(the usual base colour I believe), the wavy lines definitely seem darker than the shark's white teeth so grey or yellow perhaps?

Regards,

Arjan

alross2
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 10:42 AM GMT+7
PT196 was retained by ELCO for several months following completion and used to test a number of modifications. While Stateside, she was painted in the fanciful "Jap Terror/ELCOPUSS" scheme. What color she was painted once placed in service with RON 12 during the summer of 1943, I don't know, although it was most likely one of the green schemes. However, the shark-mouthed scheme seen in the photos was gray. David Swasey, a camoufleur at ELCO at the time, wrote: "We finally 'flew-the-coop' of logic and painted up a 'Jap terror', very much on the order of Stillwell's 'Flying Tigers' in China. The PT was admirably adapted to a 'shark face' scheme because of the chine beginning half-way down the stem, and sloping in a curve to the water. So, we painted big teeth beneath this chine, and red for the mouth between them, and two evil eyes port and starboard, just below the guardrail. Back of the face, we finished out the hull in dark and light gray wavy lines - a sort of quiet 'Adaptor System'. This particular bit was in part a real experiment, and appeared very effective under certain conditions, especially on gray days." Photos can be seen here: http://s73.photobucket.com/user/alross2/library/196?sort=3&page=1

Al Ross
awiskerke
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 10:00 PM GMT+7
Thanks for the info and pics Al. I have just read the interesting thread regarding the colours of PT 196 on the PT Boat Forum. Apparently some think the special paint job was intended for publicity reasons, I think the ad I posted seems to prove this point.

Regards,

Arjan