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General Ship Modeling
Discuss modeling techniques, experiences, and ship modeling in general.
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Build blog for Heller's HMS Victory
timmyp
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2018 - 08:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm surprised that Heller would go through the trouble of getting the foretopgallant stays more or less historically accurate, but then be chintzy on how the maintopgallant stays are secured.



It's funny, I frequently find that in kits; one part of the model is cleverly designed, but an adjacent area looks like the design "B" team was at work, leaving you scratching your head. Maybe that is why this happens - multiple teams working on a kit design project? Oh, well... it keeps things interesting!




And the sad thing is, to make the model more accurate, all they had to do was mold two holes into the deck, and add a couple or eyebolt rings to the kit!
TimReynaga
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 12:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm surprised that Heller would go through the trouble of getting the foretopgallant stays more or less historically accurate, but then be chintzy on how the maintopgallant stays are secured.



It's funny, I frequently find that in kits; one part of the model is cleverly designed, but an adjacent area looks like the design "B" team was at work, leaving you scratching your head. Maybe that is why this happens - multiple teams working on a kit design project? Oh, well... it keeps things interesting!

timmyp
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Posted: Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 12:13 PM UTC
Maybe - but I doubt it!!
d6mst0
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Posted: Friday, September 07, 2018 - 01:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm surprised that Heller would go through the trouble of getting the foretopgallant stays more or less historically accurate, but then be chintzy on how the maintopgallant stays are secured.



Maybe they felt you could use a break.
timmyp
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Posted: Friday, September 07, 2018 - 09:33 AM UTC
So, I was looking at Heller's instructions, trying to figure out how I should attach the foretopmast stays (E7 and E8) to the bowsprit. Looking at Heller's diagram (see below),

it would seem that they are just tied directly to the bowsprit. However, in looking at Longridge's book, this is what he has to say:

"...eye, mouse, etc., are prepared as for the main stay. It passes through the hole in the starboard bee, round the sheave in the bee block and has a 24-on. long tackle block turned in the end, connected by its fall (3 1/2 in.) to a 14-in. single block hooked to the starboard knight head. The fore topmast preventer stay...is prepared in the same way. Both stays go round the topmast head outside the rigging and lie below the first and second cross tress. The preventer stay reeves through the port bee and has an 18-in. long tackle block turned in connected by its fall (3 in.) to a 12-in. single block hooked to the port knight head. The preventer stay is put over the topmast head before the other stay and lies below the latter."

Hmmmmm....the bees? Better look things over!

Oh, so here it is: in instruction 9a, we see that parts 217 and 216 (starboard and port bees) are attached to the bowsprit (parts 118 and 117):




and that stays E7 and E8 go through the holes in the bees:



And then, according to the instruction 19A, we see that they are attached to some tackle that was previously made in instruction 11B.




So here is how it tentatively looks on the model: just above the tags for some other rigging lines, I have some black thread going through an "M" size block.




Couldn't be easier!!

A few posts back, I think I erroneously wrote that only 2 more stays had to have a loop and mouse made...that should have been more like 5 more stays (the 2 for the maintopmast stays, then 2 for the foretopmast stays, and one each for the mizzen stay, mizzen preventer stay, and the mizzen topmast stay).

I also have found an inaccuracy on Heller's part: according to Longridge, the maintopgallant stays are secured to eyebolts in the deck, and those eyebolts are between the foremast and the after (or, the fife rail right behind the foremast) fife rail. Heller has no eyebolts being installed there, and according to instruction 17 (the belaying diagram), it shows stays E9 and E10 being attached to the after fife rail (one each side). I don't think I'm going to try and fabricate any eyebolts and then try to install them, so I will just go with Heller's instruction of just attaching them to the fife rail. I'm surprised that Heller would go through the trouble of getting the foretopgallant stays more or less historically accurate, but then be chintzy on how the maintopgallant stays are secured.
timmyp
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Posted: Tuesday, September 04, 2018 - 12:48 PM UTC
A labor of love? I dunno...a labor? For sure!!
JJ1973
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Posted: Sunday, September 02, 2018 - 06:54 AM UTC
A labour of love, just as Russ says!

But you are making progress Tim, sure and certain! She is looking like the Victory by now - and I continue to be amazed with your patience and skill with all those rigging work!!

Cheers,
Jan
timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 - 01:04 PM UTC
I found the photo of the gap-filling cardboard on the foremast:


And here's some pix of one of the collars:



Gack! Look at that big blob of glue!

These collars go around the foremast - one is located right above the hole in part 435 (fore top mast), and the other is installed around part 396, the "mast cap for fore top gallant".

Hopefully, I can get them installed tomorrow.
timmyp
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Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 - 01:33 PM UTC
I finally installed the forestay & forestay preventer tonight:






Here's two images of the mouse I put on the preventer stay. I was trying a new technique in attaching the mouse, by running a thread through the stay itself, then wrapping the thread all around the mouse. I didn't like the way things turned out, so on the other stay, I went back to just tying thread on both ends of the mouse, and wrapping a lot of thread in between.





I also had a small...problem?... when installing the foremast. It glued down into the hull ok, but there was a lot of slack in the fore-and-aft motion of the mast. So I glued some cardboard down into the space between hull & mast, and I'll try to post the photo in a later post.


I also have found out that there are two more stays that require the use of a "mouse" to retain the loop from tightening against the mast: in Heller's drawings (instruction 15), it is stays E7 and E8 (foretopmast stay & preventer stay, respectively), and again on stays E9 and E10 (main topmast preventer stay and main topmast stay, respectively). I also am making up some collars for stays E15 and E18 (maintop stay and flagstaff (?) stay) that go from the mainmast, to a loop (collar) on the foremast, then belay to somewhere down on the deck. When I was building the foremast, I made a decision not to install these collars (and only one collar is called for in the instructions), but upon looking at instruction 30 (Sails on the foremast), it becomes obvious that the collars are needed. I'm using smaller thread for these collars, as they probably don't need to be so "beefy" as collars that hold the larger sized stays (picture(s) to follow!)

So, for the moment, that's all I've got. I thank everyone dropping in and looking around, and as always, comments are always welcome!!
timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 06:24 AM UTC
The mastodon:

RussellE
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Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 12:28 PM UTC
Tim this really is becoming a labour of love for you!

Amazing how you've taken this ol' girl and breathed new life into the kit.

A pleasure to watch
timmyp
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Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 02:36 AM UTC
Construction notes:

I put together the shrouds for the middle section of the main mast...things went pretty well:



Then, after putting the ratlines on, on the other side, I noticed the shrouds were crossed:



My first thought was to just let it go, but then I decided that this wasn't going to fly. So I removed the ratlines (thank goodness for nail polish remover!), fixed the shrouds, and reattached the ratlines:



In other stuff, as I was working on the middle section of the main and foremast, I noticed that the bottom ends are...contoured?...and should fit only way into the mast tops. Here's the orientation of the fore mast, followed by the main mast:









The good news is, I got the middle section of the main mast attached, as well as the main top cap, and the yellow support post that goes between the top and the cap. Even though this was only 3 parts that got attached, it really gave me a good sense of accomplishment. I also changed the construction manner of the main mast - with the mizzen mast, I put it together before installing it on the hull; with the main mast, I'm putting it together with it already installed in the hull. This is mostly because I wanted to get the mainstays installed, and see how those stays would go together.




In other news, this new privacy and data protection stuff that's been enacted in Europe is sort of a pain in the butt. When I tried to log-in to cubeupload, I had to submit an e-mail address, plus change my password. Good thing I write all this stuff down!!

As always, thanks for taking a peek. Hope everyone is enjoying the summer!
timmyp
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Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 - 10:52 PM UTC
Warren & JJ,

Thank you for your kind comments.

JJ, at my current pace, commissioning might actually happen in the next decade!!

Just to update all: work schedule has been getting in the way of much follow-up, but I have started to paint the middle sections of the fore and mainmasts. This painting is to paint the ends of each mast element black. Of course, as I do the painting, I'm thinking about how I need to make the shrouds for these sections on the mast. Gee, if I did as much "doing" on this model as I did "thinking about", I would have finished it years ago!!

Anyway, thanks again for your comments!!
RussellE
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Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 - 03:12 PM UTC
Amazing work Tim
JJ1973
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Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 - 02:36 PM UTC
Hi Tim!

Yes, I'm still there and following, for now more like catching up...real life is simply really busy for me these days - all fine but not much time at home...

Wow, now that's some progress here - and really, light at the end of the tunnel!! She's looking mighty fine, and I think it's simply amazing, your patience and endurance and dedication to fight through all the rigging, and all the issues with Heller's 'magic instructions'!

You're definitely doing a great job here, and it looks like we can hope for a commissioning here not too far out!!

Cheers,
Jan
timmyp
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Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 05:41 AM UTC
So I managed to finish putting the "snaking" on the mainstay (the snaking is the small thread run between the stays). At first, I tried using one continue length of thread, and wrap it around one stay, make a loop, and then move the thread to either the upper or lower stay. Well, after a times of this, I didn't like the way things were turning out (and sorry for the pic being out of focus):



So in thinking things over, I decided to cut individual pieces of thread, and then glue each individual thread in place (each short thread is 5 mm). Things got a little tight in the middle of the stay, as the two stays were very close together, but things turned out ok in the end. I put all these individual threads between the stays from the starboard side; there's a bit of a bias there, when you look at the ship from other angles.

Here's another out of focus picture, but it sort of shows the snaking at the top of the stays:



And here's a long view. It doesn't show the snaking in detail, but at least it's in focus!!



Next steps: more painting!

Thanks for looking. Any comments or questions, ask away!
timmyp
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2018 - 12:31 AM UTC
Finished (for the most part) the main stay and main stay preventer; I wanted to post this pictures today, so there's still some clean-up to do:











And, of course, a shout-out to my helper:



timmyp
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Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2018 - 01:00 AM UTC
Well, I see in my previous posts, the pictures aren't there. I wonder what happened.

Things so far: I've been working on finishing the jeer blocks that are attached to the futtocks, and getting ready to install the mainstays.

Previously, I was working on the mizzen foretop yard, getting all the blocks installed. Since there're so many blocks, I put tags on all the blocks, so I could keep straight what goes where (and apologies if I already posted this picture):



Some stuff about the jeer blocks. Here's a comparison picture:



Here's some photos of how I lashed the jeer block strops:





About the mainstay: In Longridge's book, he writes about how there is a thing called a "mouse" that holds the eye of the stay in place, up near the mast top. To make these mice, I took some 2.5 mm plastic rod, chucked it into my drill press, and used a file to turn it into a conical shape. Each mouse is about 2.5 mm long, and I tried to taper it down to 1.5 mm. Once that was done, and the part cut off the rod, I used a #61 (0.039 inch diameter) drill bit to make the initial hole, then used a knife blade to ream out the rest of the hole, so that the 1 mm thread would slide through the mouse. 1 mm is actually like 0.04 inches, so that's why the knife was used. (And even though, in scale, the mainstay is actually about 1.3 mm in diameter, the largest thread I have is 1 mm). Here's some pictures of the finished parts:













And here's a couple of view of the mouse tentatively in place:





I had to be careful at this point, as I was so happy that my ideas were working out, I was already to gluing the mouse in place. But then I realized the mast isn't glued in place, nor is the top, so I had to reel myself in.

Here's a bigger view:



This last picture has the mainstay going through the half-heart that was installed quite some time ago. The stay actually is fitted with heart down at this end, and is then lashed to the half-heart. But all that will happen soon, after I get the mainmast and top cemented into place.




As always, thanks for taking a look. I think I actually see some light at the end of the tunnel!!

p.s. I just noticed that the posting I made about creating the half-hearts for the mainstay, and installing those parts, was back on Nov 6 2017. So, six months to get this little bit of stuff done, I figure I'll be busy with this build for a long, long time!!
timmyp
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Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2018 - 03:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Tim!

Sorry for my so delayed reply! This is indeed amazing work, and it's always fun and interesting to follow your build. I hope you could make some progress over the last weeks - I'm looking forward to you next update and see Victory's sail come up sometime!

Cheers,
Jan



Jan!!

Good to hear from you, and I hope all is well with you!! I found your blog on HMS Hood that you started some time back - that was some real amazing fold-up work on the PE parts that became the 0.5 inch machine gun mounts (your describing it as some kind of oragami is very accurate!) I haven't gotten to the end of your blog, so I'm looking forward to finishing it.

Progress is proceeding. I think I've FINALLY got the all the (touch up) painting done on the masts, so next steps are glue the masts into place, attached the lower shrouds, and put the fore- and mainstays in place (I was doing some preliminary work for the stays today). So maybe by this coming weekend, I'll have some photos to post, showing a lot of progress.

And thanks for writing!!
JJ1973
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 11:16 PM UTC
Hi Tim!

Sorry for my so delayed reply! This is indeed amazing work, and it's always fun and interesting to follow your build. I hope you could make some progress over the last weeks - I'm looking forward to you next update and see Victory's sail come up sometime!

Cheers,
Jan
timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 - 07:02 AM UTC
HiiiiiHooooo! HiiiiiHooooo!

HiHo
HiHo
It's off to school we go
we learn some junk and
then we flunk
HiHo-HiHoHiHoHiHo


A- hem

Oh boy, it seems that I've been all over the place, doing a little of this, a little of that. The biggest accomplishment has been getting the jeer block strop lashings completed on the foremast. It took about 2 weeks to get it done, only because every time I turned a corner on the futtock, I usually waited for the glue to cure at least overnight. It would have been very helpful if Heller had put little or hooks or something on the futtock, to hold the lashing in place (it would have been helpful if Heller had done a better job on the instructions, but I digress). One reason I'm doing the work I'm doing right now, is because a lot of this stuff is best done "off-model", and a also because the fore and main stays wrap around the mast top, on top of all this other stuff that's happening. Here's a picture of all the things happening there:


As you can see, the jeer strops are sort of "underneath" the stays, as well as some other rigging. In the above picture, I outline the strop lashings in red and green (red to port, green to starboard. Get it? Of course you do). The jeer block strops are outlined in yellow, and the stay is outlined in pink. One interesting thing, and I mentioned this when I was assembling the mizzen mast, are what to do with the rings that are on the back side of the top. In the picture, you'll noticed that they're not really rigged to anything; in Heller's instructions, it shows a double set of blocks are attached to each ring. I only one set of the double set of blocks being used in the instructions, and it's a bit dodgy as to what all the connect to...it just reinforces my decision not to use the rings for anything (well, at least, at this time).

So here's some close-ups of the jeer block strop lashings - when I first started this process, I tied the holding knot on the high side of the...the thing on the side of the futtock:



Doing this, I had to make each loop around the futtock lower than the one before. Here's another picture, with just the starboard lashings started:



Now, on the port side, I started the lashing's knot at the bottom, and worked my way up. This seemed to work a little bit better...until got the 7th turn done, and found myself with not enough thread to finish the knot. Fortunately, I had left a lot of excess from the initial knot, and as I made each turn, I pulled that excess up through the turns. Therefore, I had enough thread to wrap around the thingy on the side of the futtock, and get it all cemented in place:



This next picture shows the black thread that will become the strop - even though there is some slack underneath the lashings, I figured it would be easier to have the thread in place before I started the lashings. And because the thread is black, I put some paper underneath it, just to give it some contrast.



I've noticed in the various drawings I've looked at, that there are 7 turns of the lashings for each strop. So I tried to replicate that here. Unfortunately, as you can see, some of the turns of the thread overlapped, or a gap was in between turns:



So here's a couple of views with the lashing completed, the mast top just put in place, and a jeer block that is somewhat attached.



Here again is a similar view, it's just taken from a slightly lower angle. And again, I haven't cut the whole thing loose from the shroud-making frame, so that's the black finger-like projections that are in the center right of the picture.



Now, for the jeer block, especially that one that is taped in place in the pix, I wanted to use the strop, and run it completely around the block, then lash the bitter end to the standing end. However, it looks like, on this particular strop, I'm a bit short in length (I'm guessing as to its length; the other side is longer). So I was huffin' & puffin' on the treadmill, and I came up with the answer: use a separate thread to tie around the block, put a loop at one end of the block (that will become the upper end, in this case), and then slide the strop through the loop, and lash the strop back unto itself. Sheer brilliance! I can't wait to make that happen.

In other news, I had previously assembled the blocks to the lower mizzen yard. In determining which direction the blocks should face, I found that two of them face forward (towards the mainmast)...I don't have my notes with me, so I can't tell you what threads they are. However, at the end of the thread in the instructions, there's a little box, that indicates I should go to instruction (I think it's 29 and 24) to find more details about the placement of the thread. Well, 29 is instructions on rigging the sails & such, and didn't show me anything. I went to instruction 24, and after about 10 minutes (seriously!) I found that the start point for those particular threads are on the mainmast - which then go back to the mizzen yard block, back to blocks on the mainmast, and then down to their belaying point. While checking on those details, I saw also that Heller indicates a couple of other sets of blocks get tied to the mainmast, for other rigging. Buuuuuuuuut, in the instructions for rigging the sails on the mainmast, the drawing shows the other sets of blocks get attached to the shrouds. I checked my 2 reference books, and neither one really indicates if those blocks are attached to the mast, or to the shrouds. Decisions, decisions!!

So, I hope to post some more tidbits soon (but I doubt it - I'll be working on those strop lashings on the main mast, so it'll be a while before I post again, I guess). One thing I have done recently, though, is to cut out a small portion of the main yard, so that it fits against the mainmast with more surface area.

So, peace, love, and understanding, and thanks for reading!!
timmyp
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Posted: Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 07:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The rigging Madman continues...

Hands down, Tim, I never could do this - your patience and will to continue is awesome! And the results you achieve as well. I'm just astonished with your endeavor to fight through this complicated mess of ropes and lines...

Cheers,
Jan



Thanks, Jan! Believe it or not, I'm having a grand time doing all this! Stick around for the next post - I think you'll like it!!

Cheers and ,

Tim
JJ1973
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Posted: Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 01:08 AM UTC
The rigging Madman continues...

Hands down, Tim, I never could do this - your patience and will to continue is awesome! And the results you achieve as well. I'm just astonished with your endeavor to fight through this complicated mess of ropes and lines...

Cheers,
Jan
timmyp
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Posted: Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 01:06 AM UTC
The Beast, so far.
timmyp
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Posted: Monday, February 12, 2018 - 06:32 PM UTC
Thanks, Kev. I appreciate your comments. Stay tuned for more!!