Can anyone tell me what the correct order of Scheer's battleline was at Jutland?
I need to identify the last ship in the leading dreadnought division (the one immediately ahead of the SMS Kaiser). 
Thanks!
--Karl
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German Dreadnoughts at Jutland
CaptSonghouse
Joined: August 08, 2008
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 05:54 AM UTC
Hi Everyone!
Can anyone tell me what the correct order of Scheer's battleline was at Jutland? I need to identify the last ship in the leading dreadnought division (the one immediately ahead of the SMS Kaiser).
Thanks!
--Karl
Can anyone tell me what the correct order of Scheer's battleline was at Jutland?
I need to identify the last ship in the leading dreadnought division (the one immediately ahead of the SMS Kaiser). Thanks!
--Karl
goldenpony
Joined: July 03, 2007
KitMaker: 3,529 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 06:11 AM UTC
I think this might be correct, SMS Markgraf - Captain Seiferling.
I found that in three different sources.
III Battle
Squadron V
König (flagship of Konteradmiral P. Behncke), Grosser Kurfürst, Kronprinz,Markgraf
Squadron VI
Kaiser, Kaiserin, Prinzregent Luitpold,Friedrich der Grosse (fleet flagship of Vizeadmiral Reinhard Scheer)
I found that in three different sources.
III Battle
Squadron V
König (flagship of Konteradmiral P. Behncke), Grosser Kurfürst, Kronprinz,Markgraf
Squadron VI
Kaiser, Kaiserin, Prinzregent Luitpold,Friedrich der Grosse (fleet flagship of Vizeadmiral Reinhard Scheer)
Gunny
Joined: July 13, 2004
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 06:24 AM UTC
A very detailed thesis on the battle, complete with battle charts, can be found here... .HUGE read, mates...
CaptSonghouse
Joined: August 08, 2008
KitMaker: 1,274 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 06:38 AM UTC
Hi Mark and Jim!
Yep, I was afraid of that...
The sources you have each mentioned conflict on whether the Markgraf or Kronprinz was the last ship (just like my own references).
I'm finishing a dio with those particular ships, so this is a not so esoteric question.
Thanks and I look forward to other input.
--Karl
Yep, I was afraid of that...
The sources you have each mentioned conflict on whether the Markgraf or Kronprinz was the last ship (just like my own references). I'm finishing a dio with those particular ships, so this is a not so esoteric question.
Thanks and I look forward to other input.
--Karl
goldenpony
Joined: July 03, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 06:49 AM UTC
The good thing is they are both König class battleships.
Sometimes those older battles can get things a little jumbled up. One account is probably based on "practice". The other might be based on "real world" information.
We had this happen to my ship one time. Our normal position was between the cruisers and the destroyers. However we had power turbine problems and had to run on the main engines. So we were behind the destroyers and in front fo the frigates. I was on a DDG.
Sometimes those older battles can get things a little jumbled up. One account is probably based on "practice". The other might be based on "real world" information.
We had this happen to my ship one time. Our normal position was between the cruisers and the destroyers. However we had power turbine problems and had to run on the main engines. So we were behind the destroyers and in front fo the frigates. I was on a DDG.
CaptSonghouse
Joined: August 08, 2008
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 07:49 AM UTC
Hi Jim!
That's a good point about practice and the real world. The problem for historians (and modelers for that matter) is that we are never better than our reference material.
Considering the performance of the old FF's, having a DDG put into their power class must have been a letdown!
Being a Gator sailor myself, speed was never an issue.
Thanks!
--Karl
That's a good point about practice and the real world. The problem for historians (and modelers for that matter) is that we are never better than our reference material.
Considering the performance of the old FF's, having a DDG put into their power class must have been a letdown!
Being a Gator sailor myself, speed was never an issue.
Thanks!
--Karl
gator
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#027
Joined: April 13, 2005
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 07:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Being a Gator sailor myself, speed was never an issue.
Thanks!
--Karl
Karl, if you want I can check my Castles of Steel book when I get home. I just got finished reading about Jutland.
Try here: www.battle-of-jutland.com
Kenny
goldenpony
Joined: July 03, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 08:00 AM UTC
It was horrible being forced to run with the FFG's. After we had the power turbine fixed and then 3 of our 4 mains changed out we could get up and move.
Then in early January we lost a shaft and had to run on one shaft for the remainder fo our Med cruise. Now that was not fun.
History cen be misleading at times. I guess thats what I like so much about it.
Then in early January we lost a shaft and had to run on one shaft for the remainder fo our Med cruise. Now that was not fun.
History cen be misleading at times. I guess thats what I like so much about it.
gator
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#027
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 08:09 AM UTC
Hey Karl,
Here's is the battle line, I believe:
König
1916 Battle of Jutland. Fired 167 12 inch rounds and was hit by 4 15inch 9 13.5 inch and 4 6 inch shells with 45 killed and 27 wounded.
Grosser Kurfürst
Present at Battle of Jutland in 1916. Fired 135 12 inch rounds. Hit by 4 15 inch 3 13.5 inch
Markgraf
Battle of Jutland 1916. Fired 254 12 inch rounds. Hit by 3 15 inch 2 13.5 inch shells causing 11 dead and 13 wounded.
Kronprinz
At the Battle of Jutland 1916. Fired 144 12 inch rounds, no damage.
If you notice, the Kronprinz received no damage as the other three did. Jellicoe's battleships were better disciplined in gunnery than Beatty's battle cruisers and wouldn't have left the Kronprinz unmolested.
Kenny
Here's is the battle line, I believe:
König
1916 Battle of Jutland. Fired 167 12 inch rounds and was hit by 4 15inch 9 13.5 inch and 4 6 inch shells with 45 killed and 27 wounded.
Grosser Kurfürst
Present at Battle of Jutland in 1916. Fired 135 12 inch rounds. Hit by 4 15 inch 3 13.5 inch
Markgraf
Battle of Jutland 1916. Fired 254 12 inch rounds. Hit by 3 15 inch 2 13.5 inch shells causing 11 dead and 13 wounded.
Kronprinz
At the Battle of Jutland 1916. Fired 144 12 inch rounds, no damage.
If you notice, the Kronprinz received no damage as the other three did. Jellicoe's battleships were better disciplined in gunnery than Beatty's battle cruisers and wouldn't have left the Kronprinz unmolested.
Kenny
CaptSonghouse
Joined: August 08, 2008
KitMaker: 1,274 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 09:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It was horrible being forced to run with the FFG's. After we had the power turbine fixed and then 3 of our 4 mains changed out we could get up and move.
Then in early January we lost a shaft and had to run on one shaft for the remainder fo our Med cruise. Now that was not fun.
History cen be misleading at times. I guess thats what I like so much about it.
Yeah, we always got stuck with plane guard for our LPH or escort duties like watching over the LST Fresno after she got slapped silly by the typhoon we were all skirting off Taiwan. I once suggested we should write to NAVSEA and have our hull number changed to "LSDE".
--Karl
CaptSonghouse
Joined: August 08, 2008
KitMaker: 1,274 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 09:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey Karl,
Here's is the battle line, I believe:
König
1916 Battle of Jutland. Fired 167 12 inch rounds and was hit by 4 15inch 9 13.5 inch and 4 6 inch shells with 45 killed and 27 wounded.
Grosser Kurfürst
Present at Battle of Jutland in 1916. Fired 135 12 inch rounds. Hit by 4 15 inch 3 13.5 inch
Markgraf
Battle of Jutland 1916. Fired 254 12 inch rounds. Hit by 3 15 inch 2 13.5 inch shells causing 11 dead and 13 wounded.
Kronprinz
At the Battle of Jutland 1916. Fired 144 12 inch rounds, no damage.
If you notice, the Kronprinz received no damage as the other three did. Jellicoe's battleships were better disciplined in gunnery than Beatty's battle cruisers and wouldn't have left the Kronprinz unmolested.
Kenny
Hi Kenny!
Your inference about Kronprinz being more towards the rear of her division based on her lower shell consumption and lack of damage may pan out.
Scheer ran head-long into the Grand Fleet twice that day and both times escaped with a 180 degree simultaneous about turn. This would have kept his ships in their relative positions towards Jellicoe even though they would be on the opposite heading. 
Perhaps our colleagues in the UK could solve this riddle?
As a museum professional myself, I must state that in all matters of military history, the British are the acknowledged masters. 
--Karl
On the ways:
1:350 Nevada & Arizona
1:125 New Orleans
Fitting out:
1:350 SMS Kaiser
Sea trials:
1:350 SMS Kronprinz...or is it really Markgraf?
gator
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#027
Joined: April 13, 2005
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 01:16 PM UTC
Hey Karl,
According to Robert Massie's "Castles of Steel" the König, Grosser Kurfürst and Markgraf were in the van of Scheer's battle fleet.
Kenny
According to Robert Massie's "Castles of Steel" the König, Grosser Kurfürst and Markgraf were in the van of Scheer's battle fleet.
Kenny
CaptSonghouse
Joined: August 08, 2008
KitMaker: 1,274 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 02:51 PM UTC
Hi Kenny!
Well, that's three of the four. Where does Massie place the Kronprinz?
--Karl
Well, that's three of the four. Where does Massie place the Kronprinz?
--Karl
gator
Vendor
#027
Joined: April 13, 2005
KitMaker: 5,422 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 13, 2008 - 03:36 PM UTC
Behind the Markgraf. The Königs led the way.
Kenny
Kenny
CaptSonghouse
Joined: August 08, 2008
KitMaker: 1,274 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 06:51 AM UTC
Hi Kenny!
It looks like the preponderance of evidence is pointing at Kronprinz being the final ship in the lead German division.
Therefore, my dio will show Kronprinz and then Kaiser...unless contradictory proof arises!
Thanks everyone!
--Karl
On the ways:
1:350 Nevada & Arizona
1:125 New Orleans
Fitting out:
1:350 SMS Kaiser
Sea trials:
1:350 SMS Kronprinz (for now)
It looks like the preponderance of evidence is pointing at Kronprinz being the final ship in the lead German division.
Therefore, my dio will show Kronprinz and then Kaiser...unless contradictory proof arises!
Thanks everyone!
--Karl
On the ways:
1:350 Nevada & Arizona
1:125 New Orleans
Fitting out:
1:350 SMS Kaiser
Sea trials:
1:350 SMS Kronprinz (for now)
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