Gentlemen!
Lately I was wondering why so many people had dropped out of the Group build contest. I can understand that one guy needs to get a new job while the other guy had a tree fall on him: All valid reasons to drop out – at least for a certain period!
But why did (more than) 50% drop out of the race completely? Some did not make it beyond taking photos of the box contents. Others even had a good start, but didn't continue.
I think those in the race can attest for the fun we are having even though sometimes the monthly deadline is a bit of a a pain in the behind. However isn’t that what the contest is about: To get that extra push to really get something done, to really get some big project completed in a good time length? The mode of contest does even allow you to skip an upgrade or 2 and still have a good chance to finish at the top. (look at Nanond: He did pass up on 4 voting occasions and still ranks No.2 on the leader board.)
I had been looking at my Leipzig kit for (at least) 3 years and waited for the good moment to get started: I knew that even with best conditions I’d take at least 6 or 7 months to finish it without any extra effort. The contest was the single best chance to get my butt moving. Now the competition drags me forward and I appreciate it.
There are still 100 top-score points out there to be collected, which still may take you onto a glorious 2nd place. Why not give it a try?
Do you have proposals to make the contest better/more attractive for you?
Example: Split up into scale and material?
… or The judges should give one more scoring category 1,2,3,5 points? … or should be popular vote be introduced for example at halftime and the final?
I am glad this contest is taking place! It has an active influence to better my modeling output quantity- and quality-wise and in my mind I have already started to review my kit stash under the current competition conditions: Which one will I send in next? … I wonder and hope that there will be another contest like this starting maybe 2-3 months after this one.
Let’s have some input.

Guido

Guido, you gave me a heart attack mate, when I read the thread title and saw who it was from....thought you were leaving us too!!!

I know what you're saying here with your queries, and I too would like to know the same...so, how about it, mates? Speak up!!!

~Gunny

I knew this headline would draw a fair bit of attention!
Guido

I see no problem with it. The more people we have the better it is, just like always. First thing we have to make sure is the folks that have not been posting are still willing to finish and make a go of it.

Hi Guido,

You raise some really interesting points. Strangely enough, I agreed completely until about a week ago when suddenly some guys started to come on strong (Barry coming back from medical reasons, etc.). Now it seems like the contest has really started to kick into high gear amongst those still involved. It's gonna be a toss up of who gets what points this month.

I still do agree with you mostly and I'll try to offer up some possible reasons.

Firstly, there isn't a split among skill levels. You, Peter, and Nanond (even absent) are just too good compared to the rest of us. AMPS and some other shows have done an interesting idea where all categories are split into skill level: basic, intermediate, advanced, master. As an example, this keeps guys like me (intermediate, maybe squeak into advanced), from getting buried by guys like you (master). I think that perhaps some people saw the really big modelers get going and thought, "Why bother? This takes so much time... why try to battle a master?" Please note I don't feel this way as I'm still maneuvering along (the Kongo has taken up most of my time anyway, which I feel is more important as that is an official review build), but it happens...

A connected point to this could be to say that there's somewhat of a skill split between OOB and Full- but perhaps not really. Because a master is still going to build a much better product than a beginner, no matter what the category.

Secondly, I may be wrong and I can't for the life of me find where it was discussed, but there are no prizes at all for second or third. This makes the contest an all or nothing sort of thing. Even in a boxing match, the loser gets a money prize, just not as big as the winner. When contest entrants see that they can't win first, and so not win *anything* it may put them off. The immediate response often heard when people have this feeling is, "It's not about the prizes." But in many ways, yes it is. Otherwise, why even have prizes in the first place? Or 1st, 2nd, 3rd, even? This is what makes this contest (prizes, places) different from a campaign (no prizes, but a feeling of accomplishment). Again, this doesn't reflect my feeling here, but as someone who has run a couple of shows, I've heard it a lot. Of course, maybe I'm wrong and there are lower tier prizes. If not, ignore this as a non-issue.

Third, I received a private email from someone a couple months into the contest when I emailed him to ask why he wasn't participating (this was done through home emails as he didn't want to rock the boat then). This may have some controversy and I even emailed the person just recently to make sure it was okay to voice this now. He approved but wants to stay anonymous.

There is an issue of MSW participation. When a certain builder began sweeping points early in the contest, but then did not participate in MSW otherwise, the email person found that very disheartening. Because he felt that if someone is going to come here and participate in the contest, get all of the points, they should continue to participate at MSW. It's very poor manners to come here, shut out the "locals" , possibly win and get all the prizes, and then ignore MSW to go back to some other website where he continues to post and send in build photos of his other ships there, but not here, etc. Maybe if the builder would have taken the time to discuss with other entrants and be a part of the community...? I don't know. I hadn't thought of this until I got that email, but in some ways, he may have a point.

I will repeat that I feel neutral about many of these things (don't shoot the messenger! ). I'm still in the contest as a personal challenge to see what I can do, and as I said, the Kongo has obviously been my main focus, so no problems with me. But I wanted to convey some items that I hear at shows and give a public voice to the concerns sent to me by the gentleman above. I think that perhaps a scale split would be a good thing after that talk on your build log, Guido, but can go either way.

Good luck to all who are still in the contest!

Great! I hope to see more opinions like this, Dade!
I think this something the staff can start to work with!
I agree on that "the more guys in the begining, he higher the chances to get anything over the finishing line" : It is a sad fact that a high percentage were doomed to not to produce any result. It is indeed that we all have a private life and you never know where the hammer may fall. ... and sometimes it is just not the time.
I can see and understand a whole lot of the points made. ...and valid they are indeed.
Let's think about them for a few minutes.

More views?

Guido

hello Guido,
i am the "guy that the tree fell on".i t turns out that the injury was more serious then first thought.i have been at Hospital for a week to get better.i asked Mark to pull me from the Community Build,as there is no way i can git it finished.i have been following your build,i may not say anything,But i do see what you are doing.

as a Campaign Leader i have found that you will get a completion rate of 10% to 15% per sign ups,if you have 50 signed up you will have 5-7 that finish the campaign.in the Blitzkrieg, i had a 13% completion rate,to me that was pretty good.other campaigns i have seen, have a 1% to 5% completion rate.

maybe we need more prizes and maybe we need to have different the skill levels.please remember this is the first Community Build so we need to work out all the kinks.i think that the next one will be better,with a more laid out plan.maybe we need to do the next Community Build using the IPMS/AMPS contest rules.
i will say this,if i can i will try to get my build done.the Good Lord Willing and the Creek don't rise.
great work on you build and thanks for your good thoughts on how to make the Community Build Better.

Miss Mary and myself will put up prizes for 2nd and 3rd place prizes for the OOB contest,if Mark will allow it.
cheers,
Bruce

Well, in first place I would like you to read my comments as Rui the ship modeler, not "Skipper" Rui Matos, Senior Editor of MSW.

Guido's and Dade's comments really touch the wound when contests are in order. Either because there's the analyze factor, fear of competition factor or just because you think that it is not worth it to continue this build against the other contenders, in the model world, this things happen.
Of course, and has Guido so well pointed out, there is also a very important detail: Real Life! Modeling projects can be delayed by real life, and sometimes we need the boost of a new project to compensate the drawbacks of real life... This can also affect our ship model productivity.
Also, and with a positive and also a negative point, would be the length of the contest... If for someone, it is difficult to take a project for a long period, either by focus on the subject, change of interest, or even, difficulty in surpassing issues and problems during built time, perhaps a smaller time period would be more challenging or perhaps a smaller project. This of course depends on each of the entrants, but I can say that, in my humble opinion, models make a wow factor by accurateness, quality of building, painting, weathering, presentation, not SIZE. So a destroyer can overtake a battleship on this or any other contest, it really depends on the quality of the final product. On the positive size, more experienced modelers, with some models under their belts, can show the attention to details, planning, techniques and workmanship of their builds. Considering that every member has a blog and show what they are doing, other modelers can learn these new techniques and use them, being contenders or not in this contest...
I am afraid to say that probably this last point may have scared the other members who have dropped out (MIA), or, on the other hand, and worst, that they have counted the points that are open and considered that there was no point on participating anymore on the MSW contest(s).
If this is the case, than, for me, one of the most important things in ship modeling has been lost: To have FUN.

Skipper, talking:
It also would be interesting and for fairness to all the entrants to have IPMS classes (scale, mediums, diorama?), but considering we have limited prizes, we are making the first edition of this contest, these are things to improve. This was some of the things that were discussed by the staff before we released the rules...
I also think that this and other points, like the Members Vote, are viable (and more, so talk and express your feelings) and open to changes in future editions of the contest.


Rui & Skipper

Rui and Skipper, split personalities ??

Anyway, I think we will allways see this no matter the rules clarity or if theres any prizes. MSW is stil a relatively small community when it comes to active participiants, theres no doubt a lot of people that lurks around, bless, them, they might become active one day, but when you look at it today - how many is actively posting and building ??

Losses in a campain is bound to happen, ambitions is allways high in the beginning, but real life tends to intrude, and suddenly a year has passed.

When it comes to coveraged and follow up, I cant think of any campain on Kitmaker that has been the center of so much attention og followups from those responsible.

I think this has so far been a good campain, I have been a regular reader on all the blogs, i have learned a lot, but commented little because I know too little about most of the subjects - but this is in my opinion as good as it reasonably gets when we are talking sparetime and hobby.

Next time will be even better (offcause only if I can participate )

Cheers/Jan

Bruce!
I sincerely hope that you will be better soon: I had had a series of injuries years ago that took about a year from me. Even though mine were by far not as life threatening as yours, I can feel your pain and the unease of being in and out of hospitals. I wish for your speedy recovery and thank you for reading my BLOG!

Rui and Jan!
Thanks for the input!


Now I hope to draw out some of the guys who actually did drop out to offer an opinion here.
Common guys! Lets hear it!

Guido

Feedback, personal opinions....two of the most important things in customer satisfaction, IMHO...and I truly value, listen to, and take to heart every one of our members (customers?!) thoughts and opinions, welcome them at all times on all facets of our website, and will continue to welcome them always...speak up, mates!
~Gunny

Very interesting reading crew mates!

To speak as a ship builder, I have enjoyed keeping up with the blogs and seeing the different ways to approach a problem. Like others, real life has gotten in the way of keeping up with the activities here on MSW for me. That being said, there are some valid points here that I would like to chime in on.

Drop in participation
Like the old saying goes, the best laid plans of mice and men often go a stray. I think that often we as model builders will get all excited about a project only to find that we end up asking ourselves "What have I gotten myself into?" This is when that nice, simple build has turned in to a monster of aftermarket proportions. A modeler gets overwhelmed and shelves the project.

They were cruising right along and then BAM! Out for the count.
I know that I fall in to this category. Things are rocking right along with the build and then you hit a stumbling block of any kind and that's it, your done. I know I haven't proceeded any farther with my Akagi because I am really not happy with the flight deck.

All or nothing when it comes to prizes
Regardless if we personally agree with it or not, some people feel that if they enter in a contest and finish 1st, 2nd or 3rd, they should receive something. Truthfully, I'm ok with that. I also understand that we as a site have a limited amount of resources when it comes to prizes. Here is something that my local club does for it's members when it comes to our contest. For a club member to enter his models in the contest for free, he donates a kit bought from a vendor and donates it to the door prize table. Face it, we all have kits in our collections that we will never build. How about donating it as a prize? Shoot, you could end up winning it back.

Now I ask that we not be too critical on focusing on what is wrong with the contest. If you take the time to look at each "problem" instead as a "learning experience", then the community contest and the community will get better from year to year. And, to leave you with one last thought, while we are passionate about our hobby, remember that it is just that. A hobby. Something that we do in our free time to make our time here on more enjoyable. If you're not enjoying it, the it's not really a hobby.

Gator

All great points, many good opinions and takes… I was going to wait until the end of the Campaign to give my own humble 2-sprues worth of opinion to the Editors (I believe in feedback!), but will babble for a couple paragraphs to add to the discussion.

FUN – yes, it has been fun for me… for many practical and quantifiable reasons. I am a hobby “returnee”, having been away for 20+ years dealing with “real life”. I re-started the hobby as a way of relaxation after work or weekends; therefore, FUN ranks high up in my priority list. Also the “old” definition of hobby = some sort of craftsmanship done in your spare time for relaxation purposes.

I would have joined even if I had to have gone mano-a-mano with Guido, Peter, Dade. : )

COMPETITION – many different takes on the meaning of “competition”. For me, my main source of “competition” was myself, as cliché as that sounds. I HAD to post decent pictures of a decent build! I could not post bad craftsmanship among this group of modelers! Believe me, I would not have spent 4 months fixing up seams if I did not have to publish the pics… and my model (and craft) would have suffered accordingly. I see the amazing detailing work of the gentlemen in the “open” division, like Peter’s detailing, Dade’s PE work, Guido’s beautiful base… cannot help but inspire you and push you (from a rookie perspective) to learn more and get better at the craft.

CRAFT – I have also enjoyed the learning of the craft of ship building and respect for the craft. Having my “work” be deemed worthy of points gives me positive feedback about my (very low level) of craftsmanship. Hey, I even started using PE last month, first time ever! (No, not on the OOB MSW contest

FEEDBACK – I believe this is the massive double-edge sword of “public” modeling. You cannot get better without feedback, you are apprehensive of feedback. I would recon that feedback-related stress can be the number #1 reason we don’t have more sign-ups, or cant get lurkers to post pictures or WIPs. A large portion of my career has centered on peer-review; manuscripts, papers, grants… The science research world just works that way… therefore, I was used to submitting “work”, have it reviewed by experts, have it critiqued in a positive or negative way, part of the job. However, maybe some people have a different work/life experience and equate feedback with NEGATIVE feedback, or the potential for posting errors. Maybe this is the reason we don’t get more people to join in or lurkers to surface?

The one idea to maybe think about is changing the OOB category to "newbie/rookie/beginner"? Or to offer any lurker or lad under age of 16 a free kit to build during the contest?

In terms of points, time-frame, divisions, etc... its all logistics, constrained by availability of prizes, judges and contestants.

I will think more about this and provide more feedback tothe MSW editors at the end of the contest...

The short of it.... if the goal of the MSW contest was to foster cammaderie, increase craftmanship and for members to have fun.. I call it a success!

A BIG success thus far!

Thanks for the honest answers, mates...and again, feedback, albeit positive or negative, is always welcome! How can we expect to improve your website without it?

Morning All!
If I may, I would like to add to this thread.
I would like to tell you why I didnt get involved with this build, it may help.
Im very new to model ships but not modelling so naturally I ,turned to this site.
The main reason that I didnt enter the build was the requirement to post pics along the way by the end of the build session.
Im not complaining, I just know my schedual would not allow it (I.E. Im a slow builder)
I personely build for fun, never been in a real contest.
I have learnt a great deal from this site, and you Folks are fantastic.
So with this said, I hope everybody has a great day, and happy modelling.
Todd

Gentlemen!
A whole lot of true and wise words have been said. I think with the reasons said we should cover most of the drop-outs. Thanks as well for offering an opinion for not entering at all.
Again I would like to stress that my posting was not to paint the drop-outs red, but to understand und might make future events more promising in regards to participation, and subsequently more competitive fun! As well, this is NOT to dig for problems! This is to find out about a few things and maybe re-design the competition to better suit the competitors, hence creating more competition and more competitive fun!

Please allow me to synthesize a few general markers and pointers that may help the future participant and the staff to design the competition. This is no universal truth or wisdom! This is heads up and brains on!

If you are thinking about participating in a contest ask yourself the reasons, why you want to compete and if you can compete. If you found your aim ask yourself:

1. Is my plate full, already? Should I sign up, if I have another 6 deadlines to keep?

2. Commit to your competition: Can I stay the course? (Do I want it?)Dropping out of the race is both harmful to my own moral and the fellow competitor’s fun in the race. Be a good sport and try to put up a fight instead of throwing in the towel.

3. If you want to win, you want to make sure you put in your best horse: Choose your modeling subject according to skill and time. A good small subject will be able to compete with a big one, by allowing the builder to concentrate to have his craftsmanship right. Not the size of the model does make the judge value your work high, but the determination with which you pursue your build and the craftsmanship shown in this pursuit.

4. Competing with yourself: This competition should be about comparing your skills with other modelers. Compare your work with what others have done and have the guts to go back and re-do your progress: Both judges and readers will appreciate it AND you will further your craft AND finish a better model.
Sitting down to write the progress essay helps you to better your modeling. If you sit down to write about what you did you will start to think about what you will do. Having a plan DOES help! When taking photos you find the flaws in your build: Use this to correct them.
Use the pressure of the competition to keep at your build.
The participant should see the competition with himself to produce the best model ever, according to his skill and as such be a better modeler in the end: That is when you win!

5. Competing with others: Only if the participation numbers are high one gets a good feeling of an achievement even, if you are not ranking in the top spot. How much fun would it be for you to finish first in a race with nobody else finishing?
Of cause one or the other may feel judged unfairly at times, but hey - that’s life and it can a b****! Get up, get over it, and get going!

6. Competing with outsiders: When a public competition is taking place, it is possible that some outsider comes to your turf (Maybe it is supposed to draw a new crowd? It certainly did in my case, being a lurker only until then!). Be good sport and welcome the contender, but be ready to defend your turf. This is your house! Don’t be surprised if he takes your turf, if you don’t step up! A competition is supposed to draw the best, so show your best!
Don’t be offended if the outsider does not bring along his furniture to make himself a new home right away. Show respect and good sportsmanship and he may start by bringing an armchair.

7. …and finally Tsun Tzu: Maintain your aim!
Dropping one or 2 months may not make that much of a difference, if you maintain your aim in the long run.

For the staff

1. Awarding points: Of cause it will make it a bit more difficult for you, but if you have more points to share out more people can be credited for the work. It’ll be easier to show some appreciation of the work. That might help to keep more guys running along.

2. Incentive : Obviously winning something means a great big deal. Future competition should award and reward more than just the top spot. Maybe rattling on some doors will help to fill gaps. IIRC some companies volunteered prices even after the contest started, why not go and ask them before starting the sign up? Certainly it does not have to be a Super Carrier complete with PE all the time!?

3. Contest rules/Classification/IPMS Ruling
Further classification into more defined groups will make not much sense: The groups will be too small and you will need more incentives.

I think we are getting the best voting workable for our case. IPMS ruling is difficult to apply, because they are made to set a ready product into relation of another ready product. How to comparatively judge someone applying decals against someone applying color coats or PE by IPMS ruling?
As well, IPMS ruling asks the judge to find mistakes to eliminate competition for points. That can be manipulated by the way of taking the photo alone.

I am totally clear that many of the above points are “debatable” to say the least.
In my opinion we have a very good competition already. Maybe one or the other idea will flow into the next one to make it even better. Anyway the whole got me thinking and I may offer a totally different approach to a contest, but I will discuss this with Gunny first.

To say this as a newcomer: I really do like how you handle things here and I find the range of activities here amazing! You are a cool (and well mannered) bunch of modelers here!

Cheers,
Guido

While I cannot comment on the contest concept, I enjoy the Campaigns because (like themed projects in clubs) they give focus to a new project. Also, since I prefer to seek out unusual topics or new interpretations of established themes, the creative challenge is a real stimulus to me.

For example, the Pearl Harbor theme that crossed over from Aeroscale last December allowed me to revisit a Battleship Row topic for the first time in 20 years. I was able to incorporate newer kits, products, new research revelations (turret colors!), and re-introduce my pyro technique to a larger audience. Likewise, the other campaigns I have signed on for have set new vistas for my scale expression.

So, for me, organized builds--if the topics and conditions are appealing--are a prod to plan, construct, and complete a vision. Now, if I can only master the dark art of miniature photography....

--Karl