Hi folks,

Looking at the picture I have of MTB 103 on page 118 of Allied Torpedo Boats. Am I correct in thinking the bow deck finish is correct as depicted on the Italeri Boat? The reason I ask is I have another picture of her on page 22 of PT Boats in Action that shows the 4 guard rail posts and a small center flag(?) post. I'm assuming this was a later modification or am I just not seeing the posts in the first picture?

The fewer alterations I need to do the better. Time to start gathering some data on the boat.

Thanks

Al

Hello Alan, the 103, like other boats in her class, had four sockets in the foredeck for the lifeline stanchions, which were removable. The jack staff on the foredeck was also removable. Look at PT117 (page 24)and you'll see the same arrangement as the 103. In the photo of the 109 (page 27) there are no stanchions or lifelines rigged. The jack staff was inserted as they were coming to dock. The jack mounted on that staff was blue with 48 stars. Hope that helps. Al

Al has it right. Italeri did mold the sockets for the rope line stanchions on the deck. They did not mold the socket for the Jackstaff. You'll have to consult photos. As Al said the Jack was flown here but note that Italeri made a mistake with the flag and made them 50 star by mistake. You'll have to find some aftermarket solution or make your own if you wish to display the US Union Jack.

In the field these rope lines were never used. About the only time you ever see them is at the Elco factory. They were just in the way so the crews stowed them out of the way. The jackstaff was sometimes kept in place. You'll have to consult your references.

If you're doing the 103 boat note the difference in mast in the Italeri book included with the kit. Not sure if they later changed it or just removed it.
Dave

Hello David, The 'Union Jack' is the British flag. The US Navy 'Jack' flown from the Jack-staff was a solid blue flag with 48 stars (now 50), and is only displayed in port. A nation's flag, also referred to as an 'Ensign', is flown from the mast while at sea, and from the stern in port. Italeri did get the number of stars wrong on the US flag included with the 109, but got it right with the 596. Al

Hi Al,
The "U.S. Union Jack" is the blue field with stars. I'm at work now but doing a quick search of the web confirms that. I've only seen it flown on a PT Boat on the bow jackstaff. The National Ensign which is the stars and stripes I've seen flow from the mast and where there was no mast (as on PT-109) is flown on the stern flag staff.

Good to know about the flag on the 596 kit. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm curious to see if Italeri includes anything in their upgrade set coming out soon.

Take care
Dave

David, I agree about the flag, the point I was trying to make is that it is just called a 'Jack', not a 'Union Jack'. About the 109's mast, there are a couple of photo's of the 109 with a mast. One, in the 'original' Squadron "PT Boats in Action", of the 109 off Panama (page27). And, in the 'revised' edition, on the deck of the S.S. Joseph Stanton, with her mast folded down (page13). I wonder why and when the mast would have been removed? Al

Hi Al and David,

Thanks for the info guys, that helps clarify the matter.

Cheers

Al

Glad to help. Al (P.S.) I checked out that Griffon PE set for the Vosper. It would have been great, but there's not much that I can do with it now. It does provide a lot of detail and would've been welcome.

Alan,

These might help:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/side_zps84e7892e.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/top_zps034c875f.jpg

Al Ross

Hi Al,
Trust me, I don't want to get in an argument about either point. Let me share with you what I found...

The original US "Union Jack" was the Don't Tread On Me flag. I agree that the British refer to their flag as the Union Jack. However The Navy Jack, Jack, or US Union Jack is what we both agree on. I think the terms are used interchangeably. Here's a Navy Jack. It clearly is labeled US Union Jack. I stole it from a military history web site. Bottom line I believe we're both right.




I agree with you that the 109 had a mast coming out of the factory and when transferred to Panama. I'm sure it had a mast on arrival in theatre. In my opinion sometime after arrival in theatre the mast was gone. If you look at the photos on Gene Kirkland's web site (http://pt-king.gdinc.com/index2.html) you'll find a very good story about the history of PT-109. The mast is not visible prior to JFK or under his command. No telling why but many boats ditched their masts until radar came along. I'm familiar with the photo in the book you referenced. It's labeled incorrectly. That is PT-105. Anyway, here are three photos of the 109 in theatre. Some say the mast is folded but there is no evidence of it in the Bollard photo.

PT-109 prior to JFK


PT-109 under JFK

Hi Al R,

Many thanks.

Hi David,

I read somewhere recently the mast could be folded back and the original one served no other purpose than a mast pole for the flags?

Thanks again guys.

Alan

At that early point they were good for signal flags, battle flags, and navigation. There is a navigation light at the top of the mast. Not of much use in theatre. A lot of people will miss this but there's also a small slit of a navigation light on the stern flagstaff.
Dave

Thanks David.

Alan