Graham Townsend (Ripster) is already gathering information for Military Small Crafy Campaign (running in 2007) and he gives his view of this Osprey - New Vanguard title.
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Skipper
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REVIEW
British Motor Torpedo Boats 1939-45
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 09:08 PM UTC
Ripster
Joined: June 01, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 09:20 PM UTC
Thanks for publishing this so quickly Rui. I should point out that since I wrote this I've been contacted by MSW member Al Ross, who as you will know is a great authority on Allied Coastal Forces, with several highly-regarded books to his credit. Al highlighted to me that this book does actually contain numerous factual errors - he drew the publisher's attention to this but they have chosen to ignore him for some reason!
I still thinks it's a good little volume and provides a useful reference for us, but clearly I must add the caveat that some of the info in it should be cross-checked against other sources before being taken as gospel.
Perhaps Al would be kind enough to point out the errors here for us?
I still thinks it's a good little volume and provides a useful reference for us, but clearly I must add the caveat that some of the info in it should be cross-checked against other sources before being taken as gospel.
Perhaps Al would be kind enough to point out the errors here for us?
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 09:31 PM UTC
Hi Graham
Yes, I have noticed that Al Ross is aboard
I should have already said something, but...
I must agree that Al Ross and John Lambert books on Allied Coastel Forces (Volumes I and II - which, btw, are 10 feet away from me!) are of great value, and also with great costs, specially for younger or more budget limited modelers.
But not accepting advice on some errors is a bad company policy, espeacialy if the person who is pointing them out, is a well know author like Al Ross - since this book is old, maybe Ospreys policy may have changed... who knows?
Without starting a non-sense discussion, there is always Squadron Signal's #7 PT-Boats in Action and #13 Vosper MTB's in action with a good quality/price ratio... Of course this would leave out of the "party" the overlooked (by Model Manufacturers) Fairmile MTB (D, please!!!)
Thanks, Graham
Skipper
Yes, I have noticed that Al Ross is aboard
I should have already said something, but...
I must agree that Al Ross and John Lambert books on Allied Coastel Forces (Volumes I and II - which, btw, are 10 feet away from me!) are of great value, and also with great costs, specially for younger or more budget limited modelers.
But not accepting advice on some errors is a bad company policy, espeacialy if the person who is pointing them out, is a well know author like Al Ross - since this book is old, maybe Ospreys policy may have changed... who knows?
Without starting a non-sense discussion, there is always Squadron Signal's #7 PT-Boats in Action and #13 Vosper MTB's in action with a good quality/price ratio... Of course this would leave out of the "party" the overlooked (by Model Manufacturers) Fairmile MTB (D, please!!!)
Thanks, Graham
Skipper
Ripster
Joined: June 01, 2005
KitMaker: 970 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 09:43 PM UTC
I have just received Allied Coastal Forces Vol II through the post today. Normally I'd baulk at paying £40 for a book (!) but I was able to get it for just £12.95 plus postage from Naval & Military Press
Just waiting now to see if they can get Vol 1 for me...
Just waiting now to see if they can get Vol 1 for me...
AlanL
Joined: August 12, 2005
KitMaker: 14,499 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 11:43 PM UTC
Hi Graham and Skipper,
Firstly Graham thanks for the review and subsequent follow up. Also for the information about MTB Books which may prove most uesful especially if the Italeri ELCO Boat due out can be modelled as a British MTB :-) :-) :-) .
Thanks guys.
Al
Firstly Graham thanks for the review and subsequent follow up. Also for the information about MTB Books which may prove most uesful especially if the Italeri ELCO Boat due out can be modelled as a British MTB :-) :-) :-) .
Thanks guys.
Al
Ripster
Joined: June 01, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 11:51 PM UTC
You're welcome Al. I for one can feel a 1/72 coastal flotilla coming on
AlanL
Joined: August 12, 2005
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 01:54 AM UTC
Hi Graham,
My LC collection is growing into an' Armada' but I could easily see an 1/35 British MTB in the harbour of yet another project!!!!! :-) :-) :-) currently in the planning stages.
Cheers
Al
- as they say in the movies 'I'll be back' - with more questions later :-) :-) :-) :-)
My LC collection is growing into an' Armada' but I could easily see an 1/35 British MTB in the harbour of yet another project!!!!! :-) :-) :-) currently in the planning stages.
Cheers
Al
- as they say in the movies 'I'll be back' - with more questions later :-) :-) :-) :-)
Ripster
Joined: June 01, 2005
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 03:41 AM UTC
Blimey! An MTB in 1/35 would be impressive to say the least. Big job to scratch build as well... How far along are you with your plans?
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
especially if the Italeri ELCO Boat due out can be modelled as a British MTB :-) :-) :-) .
Let's put it this way. The 80' ELCO hull does not even vaguely resemble any other MTB/MGB hull of the WWII period. From a long, long distance away, its profile is somewhat like the 85' USAAF ARB (aviation rescue boat), the post-war Norwegian TJELD (NASTY) class, and the post-war Soviet TYPE 183 (P6).
Al Ross
Ripster
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:23 AM UTC
I guess that's you told then :-)
Just started reading 'Allied Coastal Forces Vol 2' this evening Al. Obviously I've had a flick through and am very impressed so far. Didn't realise the ELCOs carried so much firepower either!
Could I fire a quick question at you?
I have Revell's 1/72 Vosper 72' 6" MTB, but having looked at the kit it seems to be a somewhat odd configuration. Which of the Vosper boats is it best suited to make a good representation of?
Cheers
Just started reading 'Allied Coastal Forces Vol 2' this evening Al. Obviously I've had a flick through and am very impressed so far. Didn't realise the ELCOs carried so much firepower either!
Could I fire a quick question at you?
I have Revell's 1/72 Vosper 72' 6" MTB, but having looked at the kit it seems to be a somewhat odd configuration. Which of the Vosper boats is it best suited to make a good representation of?
Cheers
Gunny
Joined: July 13, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 04:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Perhaps Al would be kind enough to point out the errors here for us?
Hi Al,
On a professional note, mate, could you list the innacuracies? I am VERY interested to know just what is what, so that we can make sure that the researchers using this reference do the right thing!
~Gunny
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 06:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have Revell's 1/72 Vosper 72' 6" MTB, but having looked at the kit it seems to be a somewhat odd configuration. Which of the Vosper boats is it best suited to make a good representation of?
Hi Graham,
The Revell kit was originally released in the 1960s as "McHale's Navy PT73", the boat used on the TV show. This boat was a much modified, license-built Vosper designed for the Soviet Navy. This configuration was NOT used by the RN. Plans for this boat are on pp. 166-169 in Vol. 2.
Conversion to any RN Vosper would require major surgery and lots of scratchbuilding. The hull is way off. It has a V bottom, where the actual boat had the classic Vosper ogee form which transitioned to a flat at the transom.
Al
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 07:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Al,
on a professional note, mate, could you list the innacuracies? ~Gunny
I'll list a few; there are more.
On pp.19-20, the author lists exPT88, 90-94 |(MTB419-423) as 77' ELCOs (which they weren't), then as 78' Higgins (which they were). The photo on p. 19 is of a 77' boat, not a 70' boat. On p.19, he says PT5-8 were Higgins boats and that PT7 & 8 were aluminum. PT5 & 6 were Higgins boats, PT7 & 8 were designed and built at the Philadelphia Navy Yard. PT7 was wooden, PT8 was aluminum. Same page, the ten 77' ELCOs which were to become MTB 317-326 became PT 59-68, not Soviet Navy craft. Page 44, table "The pennant numbers 332-346' were allocated to Vosper, but were not used" Maybe not by Vosper, but MTB332-343 were 70' Canadian Power Boat Company boats; MTB344-346 were Thornycroft boats similar to their CMB types of WWI. Etc...
These are easily avoidable errors, as this is basic data that has been around for years.
This seems to be a persistent problem with publishers who produce large numbers of titles in soft-cover format. Authors with little or no obvious familiarity with the topic read a bunch of other folks' books, select bits and pieces from each, and compile them into a single volume.
The author of this book, according to the bio on the inside front cover, has "...written over 20 books, many of which are published by Osprey." The maritime titles they list for him all deal with 16th to 18th century sail. How does that apply to 20th century petrol-powered small combatants?
Having read all but three of the books listed in his bibliography, I can even tell from which books some of this material was derived.
Al
AlanL
Joined: August 12, 2005
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2006 - 09:57 PM UTC
Hi Al,
Well Bugger, no 1/35 MTB for me this year anyway. LOL, LOL
Looks like this title is littered with inaccurate stuff, thanks for drawing the attention of members to this. There is nothing worse than innaccurate information.
Question1 : Would any of the US ELCO boats have been based in England - I might move to plan B or was that Z!!!!! LOL, LOL
Question 2: Would the RN have had any UDT Boats??
Graham, re the harbour scene I'm sourcing stuff at the moment. I have a couple of very rough sketches with the layout, the LCMs are ready to build and I might have sourced the UDT boat. British goods wagons and flatbeds for the pier are proving difficult but information is coming in slowly. I hope to have the base ready in about 2 weeks to mark up the layout and begin the landward side of the build. Old tyres for the pier and boats are starting to arrive form various members here on site and I've sourced most if not all of the figures I would like to use, some will have to be altered as I'd like a Bobby in the scene as well. Size has been set at 24" by 29".
Cheers
Al
Well Bugger, no 1/35 MTB for me this year anyway. LOL, LOL
Looks like this title is littered with inaccurate stuff, thanks for drawing the attention of members to this. There is nothing worse than innaccurate information.
Question1 : Would any of the US ELCO boats have been based in England - I might move to plan B or was that Z!!!!! LOL, LOL
Question 2: Would the RN have had any UDT Boats??
Graham, re the harbour scene I'm sourcing stuff at the moment. I have a couple of very rough sketches with the layout, the LCMs are ready to build and I might have sourced the UDT boat. British goods wagons and flatbeds for the pier are proving difficult but information is coming in slowly. I hope to have the base ready in about 2 weeks to mark up the layout and begin the landward side of the build. Old tyres for the pier and boats are starting to arrive form various members here on site and I've sourced most if not all of the figures I would like to use, some will have to be altered as I'd like a Bobby in the scene as well. Size has been set at 24" by 29".
Cheers
Al
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Al,
Would any of the US ELCO boats have been based in England - I might move to plan B or was that Z!!!!! LOL, LOL
Hi Al,
There were two 80' ELCO squadrons in the Channel - RON34 (PT498-509) and RON35 (PT510-521). They both arrived in June, 1944 but were all transferred to the Soviets by November 1944.
Compared to the heavily-armed and dramatically-camouflaged Pacific boats, these looked rather tame. Based on photos of a couple of these boats, they had a 40mm aft, the usual .50 turrets, four MK13 torpedoes in roll-off racks, and a single 20mm MK14 to port forward. However, contemporary newsreel footage shows the 20mm replaced by a 37mm M4 on PT509, 515, 517, 519, & 520. There may have been other armament variations, as well, but I haven't seen any photos of such.
Camouflage was MS13 - Haze Gray (5-H) vertical surfaces, Deck Blue (20-B) horizontal surfaces.
Al
AlanL
Joined: August 12, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 02:48 AM UTC
Hi Al,
Thanks for that - now that opens up even more possibilities and being based in the channel in 44 that would fit right in with my time frame.
Would you by any chance have a photo re the camo scheme?
Thanks for that - brilliant, this keeps getting better and better :-) :-)
Cheers
Al
Thanks for that - now that opens up even more possibilities and being based in the channel in 44 that would fit right in with my time frame.
Would you by any chance have a photo re the camo scheme?
Thanks for that - brilliant, this keeps getting better and better :-) :-)
Cheers
Al
Ripster
Joined: June 01, 2005
KitMaker: 970 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 04:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Revell kit was originally released in the 1960s as "McHale's Navy PT73", the boat used on the TV show. This boat was a much modified, license-built Vosper designed for the Soviet Navy. This configuration was NOT used by the RN. Plans for this boat are on pp. 166-169 in Vol. 2.
Conversion to any RN Vosper would require major surgery and lots of scratchbuilding. The hull is way off. It has a V bottom, where the actual boat had the classic Vosper ogee form which transitioned to a flat at the transom.
Hi Al
I'm not averse to some surgery and scratch-building if I can make a boat that saw RN service out of this one. Could you give me some more specific guidance on what would be required, in addition to modifying the after end of the hull?
Alternatively, if I have read ACF Vol 2 correctly, I believe as it stands the Revell kit can be used to build one of hull numbers 661-730, but not one of the earlier boats without major modification? All of these were built for the USSR - do you know which ones would have actually seen active service, and what paint scheme they would (might?!) have worn?
Finally, the $64,000 question - what would you say are the best 1/72 MTB and PT Boat models on the market?
Bet you're glad you joined MSW now that you're having all these questions fired at you! It will only get worse when the campaign gets underway you know... :-)
Cheers
Graham
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 05:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm not averse to some surgery and scratch-building if I can make a boat that saw RN service out of this one. Could you give me some more specific guidance on what would be required, in addition to modifying the after end of the hull?
That's best answered by simply telling you to compare John's drawings of the two boats and see what you come up with. Perhaps the easiest way to do this is to make photocopies of the plans for the Soviet boat and one of the RN boats you want to build. Enlarge/reduce them to the same scale, then hold them over a light box or up to a window. The differences will be readily apparent.
Quoted Text
Alternatively, if I have read ACF Vol 2 correctly, I believe as it stands the Revell kit can be used to build one of hull numbers 661-730, but not one of the earlier boats without major modification?
Correct
Quoted Text
All of these were built for the USSR - do you know which ones would have actually seen active service, and what paint scheme they would (might?!) have worn?
Other than the information provided in the table, no. I haven't seen any photos of these boats in Soviet service, so can't comment meaningfully on the paint scheme. The photos I've seen of other Soviet CF types generally show them in an overall medium shade of gray. That's terribly vague, but is the best I can offer.
Quoted Text
Finally, the $64,000 question - what would you say are the best 1/72 MTB and PT Boat models on the market?
I wouldn't. I'm one of those rivet counters who has to measure, compare against official drawings, etc., before making a qualitative statement.
Al
Ripster
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 05:42 AM UTC
Thanks for the info Al. I think I will build her as a Soviet boat, just modifying the aft end of the hull as described and detailing or replacing the weapons, deck fittings, and so on.
And overall grey she will be! Maybe with just a little red flag to set her off...
And overall grey she will be! Maybe with just a little red flag to set her off...
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 06:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Would you by any chance have a photo re the camo scheme?
Surprisingly, not that are particularly clear. Basically, everthing you see when looking at the side of the boat is Haze Gray (a light gray) and everything you see when looking directly down on the boat is Deck Blue (a very dark blue-gray). The latter includes the day cabin and charthouse roofs. Torpedoes are typically natural metal body with a dull bronze or dark gray warhead. You can get tins of correctly matched colors from White Ensign Models (WEM) over in your part of the world.
www.whiteensignmodels.com
Al
AlanL
Joined: August 12, 2005
KitMaker: 14,499 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 03:41 PM UTC
Hi Al,
thanks for the reply on the paint scheme for the ELCO boat, much appreciated.
Cheers
Alan
thanks for the reply on the paint scheme for the ELCO boat, much appreciated.
Cheers
Alan
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