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Discuss on research, history, and issues dealing with reference materials.
Midway 2019
ChurchSTSV
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:56 AM UTC
Oh Boy!! This is pure ship goodness, boys!! Take it in!

https://youtu.be/w7HnS-tpWMo
d6mst0
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 05:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oh Boy!! This is pure ship goodness, boys!! Take it in!

https://youtu.be/w7HnS-tpWMo



It will be most interesting to see how much Hollywood sticks with the facts while maintaining the entertainment factor.

Mark
PzDave
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 12:29 PM UTC
I have been following the progress on this film. I have looked at the IMDB website to see which characters in history of the battle have been portrayed. Looks Ok to me. All the right people are being shown.I went to the video trailer that has been referenced. There are many comments there shooting down the movie. I wonder if those comments are from the competing movie companies!
The movie does seem to show Capt. Rochefort. If they get that right I will be happy. The movie must show the TBD,s and what happened to them as well as the other losses in the battle.
The movie trailer comments on the You Tube video make reference to the Midway movie from the 1970's. Yes, that movie was historically correct. But it was just a mass of old clips from older movies and documentaries. They also had far too many expensive actors in the movie. Probably shooting the budget way over.
For me I will keep my fingers crossed and hope they don't screw it up. I will gladly pay the admission price to see if it is correct. Figuring that I saved that money from NOT watching another Marvel movie of another Godzilla film with Mothra!
RussellE
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 01:08 PM UTC
God, I hope it's not the train wreck that Pearl Harbor was!

Or the mess (accuracy wise) that the Dunkirk remake turned out to be
Cosimodo
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text

God, I hope it's not the train wreck that Pearl Harbor was!

Or the mess (accuracy wise) that the Dunkirk remake turned out to be



You're right on those, though I enjoyed Dunkirk a lot more. I think movie directors get carried away with the CGI possibilities these days so let's hope it focuses on the history of Midway.
d6mst0
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

God, I hope it's not the train wreck that Pearl Harbor was!

Or the mess (accuracy wise) that the Dunkirk remake turned out to be



The Dunkirk movie was a mess, totally hated it. I didn't know until that movie came out that the Spitfire carried a unlimited amount of ammunition. If it had a unlimited amount of fuel they wouldn't had to evacuate the beach...LOL

Mark

Mark
ChurchSTSV
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 02:56 AM UTC
I am still excited despite the comments on YT. Its not often us naval modelers get to see the subjects of our builds on the big screen let alone all the diorama possibilities we are gonna get!!

Even tho its CGI, its gonna be exciting to see this huge naval battle with the ships we have built, researched, obsessed over, etc.
PzDave
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 08:53 AM UTC
As you know most comments on You Tube are stupid or misinformed at best. Also movies like The battle of Britain or Tora Tora Tora can never be made again. CGI rules. I just hope that they show the true story.
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 09:21 AM UTC
The aircraft suffer from the same over-the-top elements found in Red Tails, where they fly way too fast and perform maneuvers that make no sense such as having Zeroes fly down a street strafing yet not hitting any power lines, telephone poles or any of the other stuff strung over a typical road.

It is Roland Emmerich, purveyor of popcorn turds like The Day After Tomorrow, Independence Day, Godzilla (with Matthew Broderick), 2012, and other disaster film crap. The CGI ships are the lipstick on what will prove to be another Hollywood pig. The only thing good about Emmerich is that he is not Uwe Boll.
RussellE
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 10:33 AM UTC
To be totally honest i'd much prefer CGI done properly than what Nolan did in the remake Dunkirk: using a 1950's French destroyer to represent the RN's pre war destroyer fleet is totally inexcusable! Not too mention the modern cranes all along the beach front!!!

The problem with Hollywood is that just because they can do something with CGI doesn't mean they should! Thus most of it is way over the top & unrealistic!
PzDave
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 05:31 PM UTC
To Shell Bush---I am afraid after reading your comment is that you may be right! In the trailer they did show a Zero going down the street below the power poles. God Help Us! I have waited so long for a movie on Midway that would be worthy. I may have to wait another 20 years...but I am 68 guess I am screwed.!
PzDave
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2019 - 11:38 AM UTC
There is another Miday movie coming out. It is called Dauntless. It is about the battle and the search for a downed Dauntless crew by a PBY. Trailer is available.
Movie companies do tend to produce movies on a topic in a cluster. I will let others look and made their opinions known! I will pay the money for a ticket--I save the money by not watching the 17th Spiderman movie.
RussellE
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Posted: Sunday, June 30, 2019 - 12:22 AM UTC
Dauntless looks pretty good compared with Midway
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 12:05 PM UTC
So, for Veterans Day, My wonderful wife surprised me with two tickets to see the latest movie version of "Midway". Having studied Midway both at the Naval War College and the School of Advanced Military Studies, and actually walked the beaches of Midway, Wake, the Marshall's, Pearl Harbor and the Solomons, I gave an inaudible groan when I saw her "gift". However, I decided to "suck it up" and subject myself to the agony of yet another "Hollywood aberration of history". But you know, I was impressed with what I saw-- short of the "Way Over the Top" CGI combat antics.
Here are some observations if you are still on the fence to see the movie:

1)For the most part, unlike the previous 1976 "Midway" effort, the Movie sticks pretty close to actual events in timeline and build up, and tries very hard to get the details of ships and aircraft correct (but doesn't always succeed).
2)The movie is told through the eyes of primarily three real people-- Wade McClusky, Dick Best, and Edward Layton, interspersed with other real world characters like Yamamoto, Nagumo, Halsey (who was not present at the battle), and Nimitz. There are only a few instances where fictional characters are introduced, mainly members of VB6, and the USS Enterprise which is "center stage" for a good part of the movie.
3)The movie takes a few liberties (but not many) with the characters (I doubt Layton and Best were as acquainted a they depict them in the movie). And some of the VB6 SBD Dauntless pilots and gunners have been "consolidated" for dramatic effect.
4) The actual CGI depiction of aircraft is pretty good (when they are just flying or stationary) the combat scenes are certainly "over the top". The Japanese "twin engine high altitude land based bombers" are a mystery aircraft to me-- they were neither Bettys or Lilys, as they had twin tails like a Lily, with way too long a wingspan and fuselage for either aircraft--in short they are "make believe". The rest of the Japanese aircraft look pretty good, there are Zeros, Kates and at least one Jake which looks OK. There are SBDs, TBDs, B-25s (for the Doolitle Raid), B26s a B-17, on the US side. Strangely there are no F4Fs. The US insignias are mostly depicted incorrectly as either a white star in a blue circle during Pearl Harbor, then a white star, blue circle and red dot for Coral Sea (correct), then back to a blue circle and white star for Midway (also correct). The Army B26s present at Midway are presented as high altitude bombers, but I believe they were fitted for torpedos and low altitude skip bombing at Midway. They also are incorrectly depicted as natural metal aircraft with "star and bar" insignia. Overall, the individual aircraft are depicted nicely in CGI, but the combat scenes are definitely over the top.
5)Finally, the story is generally told in a way that mirrors the historical record, beginning in pre-war Japan, touching on the reasons for the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor, the feud between the Japanese Navy and Army, The attack on Pearl Harbor, the subsequent Intelligence and code breaking efforts of Layton, the lead up of the Coral Sea and Doolittle raid to the strategic and tactical decisions surrounding the Midway Campaign, and the battle itself. There is a scene where captured American crewmen are thrown off a Japanese destroyer, which kind of ruined the move for me a bit, but I guess Hollywood had to get in a dig at Japanese wartime cruelty. At the end of the movie there's also a scene where a captured Chinese schoolteacher is found with Doolittle's cigarette lighter, then the screen flashes to the fact that 250,000 Chinese were executed for their part in the Doolittle raid. Since the Movie was partially produced in China, I can understand this bit of propaganda (although it's true, but somehow Hollywood manages to marginalize such things).

Overall, I'd give the movie an A- for entertainment, and a solid B for historical accuracy (as far as the strategic and tactical situation goes. With a couple of exceptions-- having been to the Marshall Islands, Halsey's attack there in February 1942 is pure fiction-- in the movie its depicted as a mountainous volcanic style Pacific island with a massive Japanese base. The Marshalls are actually "flat as a pancake", with the highest point above ground perhaps 30 ft. the Japanese base is also something perhaps expected at Rabaul, not in the Marshals, again with bunches of those "invented" Japanese bombers that get destroyed with a single 500lb bomb and two 100lb bonbs from Dick Best's SBD. The other exception is the almost total ignoring of the contributions of Torpedo 6 (VT6) and Torpedo 8 (VT8)- the two torpedo squadrons that were virtually wiped out during the attack, which allowed VB6 and 8 to launch a largely successful dive bombing attack. The other details of the attack itself are there, including the confusion about which carriers to attack. The movie also implies Dick Best's lungs were damaged by a faulty oxygen system, when in fact he was suffering from Tuberculosis.

Go see the movie for the entertainment. It's historical perspective is 100 times better than the 1976 movie, and is far more accurate than the "Pearl Harbor" abomination of a few years ago. It tends to cram a lot into 138 minutes though, and it might be best to have a little historical background before you go see it.
VR, Russ
Lakota
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 01:28 PM UTC
I was disappointed by the lack of F4F Wildcats, O'Hare who? The contribution of VT6 was sorely lacking in content. It was a good film overall, especially for Veterans Day.
Take care,
Don "Lakota"
TimReynaga
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 01:49 PM UTC
I for one am looking forward to the new Midway movie!

The 1975 version had a lot of shortcomings, but I still love the poster:

It was painted by Jack Leynnwood who did so many of the 1970s Revell boxtop paintings.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 03:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I was disappointed by the lack of F4F Wildcats, O'Hare who? The contribution of VT6 was sorely lacking in content. It was a good film overall, especially for Veterans Day.
Take care,
Don "Lakota"



There were a couple of other little things, like the lack of pressed uniforms, even for Nimitz. In those days, when Naval officers came ashore, they would have looked just a little better I’d think. I was surprised by the detail of the indoor office sets complete with period furniture and details— someone went to a lot of work there.
Tim— if you liked the original poster— you’ll like the action scenes, but again, they were just a bit over the top during the combat flying scenes— especially during the Pearl Harbor and the attack on the Marshalls.
VR, Russ
justsendit
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 03:42 PM UTC
While surfing TV viewing options the other day, I happened to stumble upon a Netflix series titled 'The Greatest Events of WWII In Color' which seemed to be a refresh of sorts, featuring some newly restored footage worth watching and new narrative worth lending an ear to... especially before heading out to the movies.

While my expectations were set extremely low for 'Midway (2019),' I was still able to find some things to like about the film. For example: I really enjoyed the Dauntless 80° dive-angle attack scenes. Unfortunately, throughout the film, there were too many scenes where planes flew unrealistically close to the deck.

So anyway, I caught an uncrowded matinee, was somewhat entertained and got my popcorn fix on for the month!🍿😋 The bummer was, I forgot to take advantage of my senior discount! 😖

—mike

PS: Tim, Thank's for sharing the poster art!
Quincannon
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 05:23 PM UTC
Russ: There were two air crewmen executed during the Battle of Midway, and they were thrown of of a Japanese destroyer. I cannot recall either name, but the gunner that was executed was the same fellow that jumped into an SBD on Enterprise's flight deck and shot down a bomber attacking Enterprise earlier in the war
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 05:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Russ: There were two air crewmen executed during the Battle of Midway, and they were thrown of of a Japanese destroyer. I cannot recall either name, but the gunner that was executed was the same fellow that jumped into an SBD on Enterprise's flight deck and shot down a bomber attacking Enterprise earlier in the war



It would be nice to know the genesis of this story. This is what the movie depicts, but no source I know of mentions this incident during the Midway battle, at least in the manner depicted (one of the Jonas brothers-- I forget his name, is the actor in the movie tied to an anchor and tossed overboard) I've read several books on the battle, the last of which was the book "Flyboys" (the true story of Torpedo 8 ). And I've never seen this reference-- I'm not saying it's not true, just that I didn't like the way it was depicted, and would like to know where this is documented. There were many other vignettes in the movie that were important, but unless you understand how they tied into the battle tactics, you might miss them. For instance, the attack on the Japanese battle fleet by the USS Nautilis, which detached the Japanese destroyer and cruiser escort temporarily, causing them to go to flank speed to catch up to the carriers, thus their wake being sighted by the SBDs.
VR, Russ
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 09:02 PM UTC
The Japanese bombers are not fictional. They're the Mitsubishi G3M "Nell".
RussellE
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - 09:10 PM UTC
Well, based on Russ' review, I'm definitely going to see it. It's about time we had some decent modern movies of the pivotal moments of the world wars.

I've got a couple of premium movie ticket vouchers that the wife and I can use for the occasion, but unfortunately the movie doesn't come out in Oz until the 30th of Jan!
d6mst0
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Posted: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 - 12:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Russ: There were two air crewmen executed during the Battle of Midway, and they were thrown of of a Japanese destroyer. I cannot recall either name, but the gunner that was executed was the same fellow that jumped into an SBD on Enterprise's flight deck and shot down a bomber attacking Enterprise earlier in the war



It would be nice to know the genesis of this story. This is what the movie depicts, but no source I know of mentions this incident during the Midway battle, at least in the manner depicted (one of the Jonas brothers-- I forget his name, is the actor in the movie tied to an anchor and tossed overboard) I've read several books on the battle, the last of which was the book "Flyboys" (the true story of Torpedo . And I've never seen this reference-- I'm not saying it's not true, just that I didn't like the way it was depicted, and would like to know where this is documented. There were many other vignettes in the movie that were important, but unless you understand how they tied into the battle tactics, you might miss them. For instance, the attack on the Japanese battle fleet by the USS Nautilis, which detached the Japanese destroyer and cruiser escort temporarily, causing them to go to flank speed to catch up to the carriers, thus their wake being sighted by the SBDs.
VR, Russ



In the book "Shattered Swords" the authors reported in captured IJN headquarter records after the war, three captured airman were tied up and thrown overboard after being interrogated. I believe they mention which destroyer they were on, but I don't have access to the book until this evening. If you need to know I will look it up.

Mark
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 - 03:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Japanese bombers are not fictional. They're the Mitsubishi G3M "Nell".



They are way too long in wingspan and fuselage length for a Nell. The cockpit is designed like a JU88 with a bombardier nose, resembling a Nell (I believe the Nell had a solid nose) and the twin tails and wing tips look like a Nell, but the proportions are all off. They are definitely some CGI aberration of a Lilly or a Nell though (a similar aircraft was used by Laura Croft in the lataest rendition of "Tomb Raider a few years ago-- perhaps the same CGI artist was employed?) ) The primary long range Japanese Naval bomber in the central Pacific would have been the Betty, followed by the Nell, but these are definitely not those. This aberration also appears during the Doolittle segment as a very low level strafer-- likely not probable because China was largely an Army operation and the Lily was an Army bomber, whereas the Nell and Betty are Naval aircraft. I will concede they are intended to represent Nells-- but they are the least accurate looking aircraft in the movie.
VR, Russ
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 - 03:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well, based on Russ' review, I'm definitely going to see it. It's about time we had some decent modern movies of the pivotal moments of the world wars.

I've got a couple of premium movie ticket vouchers that the wife and I can use for the occasion, but unfortunately the movie doesn't come out in Oz until the 30th of Jan!



Go if you enjoy a largely proper telling of the Battle of Midway and the events leading up to it. The story is largely told within the historical record, with a few "dramatic enhancements". The CGI aircraft are pretty good, but the aerial combat scenes are somewhat unbelievable (if you know anything about flying). However, I was impressed the producers and director at least attempted to get the story told. The contributions (and great sacrifice) of the Torpedo squadrons are almost totally ignored though, which is a great disappointment, but I suppose there's only so much you can cram into 138 minutes. It's touched on, as are other relevant facts of the story, but this movie is still head and shoulders above other similar block buster movies of the Pacific war. I guess the final judgement should be given to my loving wife who bought the tickets in the first place-- she told me she didn't know much about the war in the Pacific (even though both of our fathers fought there--one in the CBI and one on an aircraft carrier), but she learned a lot from the movie about why Midway was important. And she was impressed with Halseys bout with Shingles, as she's just recovered from them herself!
VR, Russ