Ships by Class/Type: Military Small Craft
For topics on PT boats, landing craft, Vietnam riverine, etc.
Merit PT
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 03:50 AM UTC
Thank you. I think all of you will be impressed with the Merit kits.



Quoted Text

wonderful news Garth, I can't wait for the early boast to come out and I hope they do a Higgins fairly soon.
Later

alross2
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Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 08:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text


However, I need to question source (AT CLOSE QUARTERS) here because of the numbering of the boats in RONs 38 and 39 - they have RON 38 with boats 565-576 and RON 39 with boats 575-588.

Does anyone see an overlap here?


The transfer of boats among squadrons was common. Almost all of the 77' boats and over 50 of the 80' boats were assigned to at least two squadrons during their service lives. 109, for instance, was assigned to RON5 and later transferred to RON2. 188 served in RON12, 6, and 8. 575 and 576 were transferred from RON38 to RON39 just prior to RON38's decommissioning. Detailed lists of boat assignments are contained in At Close Quarters.

Al Ross
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 10:51 AM UTC
Agreed to and stipulated, Mr. Ross, but my point is/was that most of that late war series of the type did not see action, nor did a percentage of them make it out of the US.



Quoted Text


Quoted Text


However, I need to question source (AT CLOSE QUARTERS) here because of the numbering of the boats in RONs 38 and 39 - they have RON 38 with boats 565-576 and RON 39 with boats 575-588.

Does anyone see an overlap here?


The transfer of boats among squadrons was common. Almost all of the 77' boats and over 50 of the 80' boats were assigned to at least two squadrons during their service lives. 109, for instance, was assigned to RON5 and later transferred to RON2. 188 served in RON12, 6, and 8. 575 and 576 were transferred from RON38 to RON39 just prior to RON38's decommissioning. Detailed lists of boat assignments are contained in At Close Quarters.

Al Ross

SamGruster
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Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 02:37 AM UTC
Hi, I'm a longtime lurker and PT fan. Thank you for the review Garth, this is the perfect scale for me! My middle aged eyes and fingers have trouble with smaller scales and the Italeri kit is just too darn big for the space I have. I tried to find some pictures of the kit parts but have not had very much luck so far. Do you have any parts pictures posted Garth? I did find this one, is this the right kit? Are you going to do an extended review of this kit? Here is the image I found

SamGruster
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Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 05:12 AM UTC
I checked into the kit some more and found a discussion here http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=3513&pg=2&sc=20&x=0. I am not sure about claims they did not copy the Italeri. The side of the chart room looks pretty identical and it has the same mistakes the Italeri kit has like the windows being too high up and shaped wrong and the same with the day room windows. Here is a picture of what I mean:



Anyways it looks like a good kit if you are not too picky and the scale is perfect.
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 07:35 AM UTC
Yes sir, I have sent the review and photos of the sprues to Jeremy from this site and all of them will be posted as a feature here on MWS.

Additionally, as soon as I get back to Connecticut on May 5th, I plan on giving the kit to my local model builder, Stan Pienkowski and have him build it for me and give me his opinion of it and comments about the kit, and I will write something up, with photos and have it posted here and on my website and other sites.

Garth
TracyWhite
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Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 02:36 PM UTC
David - do you know whats plans Italeri used on their 35th kit?
Weebles
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Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 04:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

David - do you know whats plans Italeri used on their 35th kit?



For the 596 kit? No, I do not.

For the 109 kit we sent them a lot of information. I recall one of the photographs they sent me showed the Al Ross drawing I sent hanging above their computers. I believe they used some of their stock drawings from the 596 and modified some for the 109 kit. But many items were improved upon. It was a fun project.

Dave
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 - 03:34 AM UTC
Well,

At any rate, MSW followers, the Merit PT kit is superb and well detailed and, I think, is well engineered. I will be extremely interested in seeing just how accurate it is and how it looks built up ...

The parts on the sprue trees leads me to think and believe that all of you who'll buy it will be happy with it.

Garth
Weebles
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Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 01:46 AM UTC
Thanks to Garth for providing the sprue shots and to Model Shipwrights for making them available to us. When Merit published this in their catalog as PT-596 and their later release to be PT-109, I think we were all thinking the same thing. Did they just copy the Italeri offering? I can tell you that I reached out to my friends at Italeri and they had no idea that Merit was going to release the same kits that they produced already in 1/35 scale. Now we've come to learn that the kits are generic in numbering which I personally think is a good idea. I have no idea if anything happened between Italeri and Merit behind the scenes so don't speculate on what I just stated. While I don't know for sure I'm assuming this is engineered and produced for Merit by the good people at Trumpeter. For the record I'm a big fan of Trumpeter.

The first thing I of course wanted to know was if this was a copy of the Italeri kit. I pulled out my PT-596 kit (which I had no involvement in by the way) and started comparing the parts. I'm not a kit designer or manufacturer so I'm not sure how many ways there are to engineer these kits. But reviewing the individual parts it was clear to me that they had an Italeri kit as many of the parts are exactly the same. Items like the radar mast, smoke bottle, gun mount pads, life raft are exactly the same and have the same mistakes. That said it is clear that they made some changes to make it their own. For example the Chart House is one piece instead of built up by several pieces as done in the Italeri kit. As mentioned the gun tubs are separate pieces. What I can't tell is if they made the same mistakes that Italeri did on the torpedoes (which were later corrected in their updates parts release).

I was disappointed that there was no deck or hull. I'm very curious if the hull shape was corrected as well as what they did with the deck design. My expectation of the 103 class release is that it will also be a redo of the Italeri kit. Hopefully Merit will provide a full kit to the usual people for a kit review by modelers.

I would expect this kit builds into a respectable late war Elco PT Boat. Consult your references because every one of them is a little different, especially after they are in theatre. I'm also certain this kit will have issues. Every kit has issues and opportunities for improvement.

I'm looking forward to seeing what people do with this kit and what the after market options might be. What I would like to see from either Italeri or Merit is an Atlantic/Med version of this boat. I would also like to see a 77' Elco and Higgins PT Boat offering in their respective scales.

Dave

TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 03:14 AM UTC
David,

Hello ...

I would tend to think that there are only 'so many ways' to cast parts, I don't know, I'm not an engineer either, maybe that's why some parts look similar?

Hey, ... the way I see it? Modelers now have other options in the way of a smaller scale than those Italeri monsters. The pre-production run kit of the 596 kit they sent me to say thank you for my help takes up a whole shelf.

MSW didn't supply the photos of the sprue trees, I did.

Again, I think modelers will be impressed and pleased with these Merit kits ...

Garth


Quoted Text

Thanks to Garth for providing the sprue shots and to Model Shipwrights for making them available to us. When Merit published this in their catalog as PT-596 and their later release to be PT-109, I think we were all thinking the same thing. Did they just copy the Italeri offering? I can tell you that I reached out to my friends at Italeri and they had no idea that Merit was going to release the same kits that they produced already in 1/35 scale. Now we've come to learn that the kits are generic in numbering which I personally think is a good idea. I have no idea if anything happened between Italeri and Merit behind the scenes so don't speculate on what I just stated. While I don't know for sure I'm assuming this is engineered and produced for Merit by the good people at Trumpeter. For the record I'm a big fan of Trumpeter.

The first thing I of course wanted to know was if this was a copy of the Italeri kit. I pulled out my PT-596 kit (which I had no involvement in by the way) and started comparing the parts. I'm not a kit designer or manufacturer so I'm not sure how many ways there are to engineer these kits. But reviewing the individual parts it was clear to me that they had an Italeri kit as many of the parts are exactly the same. Items like the radar mast, smoke bottle, gun mount pads, life raft are exactly the same and have the same mistakes. That said it is clear that they made some changes to make it their own. For example the Chart House is one piece instead of built up by several pieces as done in the Italeri kit. As mentioned the gun tubs are separate pieces. What I can't tell is if they made the same mistakes that Italeri did on the torpedoes (which were later corrected in their updates parts release).

I was disappointed that there was no deck or hull. I'm very curious if the hull shape was corrected as well as what they did with the deck design. My expectation of the 103 class release is that it will also be a redo of the Italeri kit. Hopefully Merit will provide a full kit to the usual people for a kit review by modelers.

I would expect this kit builds into a respectable late war Elco PT Boat. Consult your references because every one of them is a little different, especially after they are in theatre. I'm also certain this kit will have issues. Every kit has issues and opportunities for improvement.

I'm looking forward to seeing what people do with this kit and what the after market options might be. What I would like to see from either Italeri or Merit is an Atlantic/Med version of this boat. I would also like to see a 77' Elco and Higgins PT Boat offering in their respective scales.

Dave


viper29_ca
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Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 03:33 AM UTC
Merit kits aren't simply the Italeri kit scaled down.

Merit kits are designed and molded by the same team/company that does the Trumpeter, Hobby Boss, and Gallery Models products, Wasan Plastics.

TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 05:49 AM UTC
So, it's not a copy? I didn't think so .............. and that was the company that Mr. Chin told me about ...
Weebles
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Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 01:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Merit kits aren't simply the Italeri kit scaled down.

Merit kits are designed and molded by the same team/company that does the Trumpeter, Hobby Boss, and Gallery Models products, Wasan Plastics.




You're not understanding what I'm saying. It's not an exact copy. What I observed comparing the sprues is that many of the individual parts and exact copies including mistakes from the Italeri offering. There is NO doubt in my mind that they had this kit in hand when they designed this model. I'm not surprised that they scanned the Revell kit. It has a good shape after all.

Honestly if i were in their shoes I would probably do the same thing. I'm sure in China the information on this subject is limited. They have made changes as have been pointed out.

Everything I've read indicates that Wasan Plastics and Trumpeter are one in the same. The web site for Wasan is listed as http://www.trumpeter-china.com/. They're joined at the hip and as mentioned already and do work for Gallery, Hobby Boss, and others.

Now everyone relax and go build a PT Boat.
Cheers, Dave
Gremlin56
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Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 08:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Now everyone relax and go build a PT Boat.
Cheers, Dave



My sentiments exactly Dave, buy one and build one instead of inspecting it to death
Nice scale to work in as well, I still have Italeri's original Elco in my stash and it's very big so 1/48th might be the right size,(like Tamiya's 1/48 scale armour).
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 03:13 AM UTC
Mr. Chin of Merit told me, in an email, something that I was not aware of ... Merit was actually developing a 1:35 kit of an Elco 80-footer at the same time Italeri was, and this what he said:



"Actually, before the 1/48 PT Boats came to the being, we had worked on 1 1/35 Elco 80ft early type in 2010. Since Itreali came out with their 1/35 Elco 80, we shelved the project for a couple of years and then decided to bring it back out in 1/48 so we will not interfere with Itreali's business. These days, with the shrinking market, it is important that same item do not have more than one manufactured kit in the market."

Garth
alross2
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Posted: Saturday, June 14, 2014 - 12:16 PM UTC
Meaningless descriptions such as “Late Type” aside, it appears that the Merit kit is supposed to depict a 565-624 series 80’ ELCO. Overall, the kit compares reasonably well to the original ELCO drawings, but contains a number of rather curious errors that could be addressed to make it a more accurate model.
Some of the more obvious problems include:
a. The kit hull has a straight sheer; the real boat had a subtle S curve.
b. The kit deck has a raised lip simulating the margin plank around its perimeter; on the real boat the margin plank’s top was flush with the top of the decking.
c. The side windows on the chart house are too far above the deck.
d. The day cabin roof has a non-existent cable run along its centerline. This does not appear on the ELCO drawings nor photos of boats in the series. In the accompanying photo of the 588 boat, it’s clear this is just a line laying on top of the roof.
e. On the kit, the antenna trunk on the port side of the cockpit is round; on the real boat, it is rectangular.
f. The fins on the kit torpedoes are angular at both ends; on the actual MK13s. they are radiused on the leading edge.
g. The box top art is full of errors and has no value as a reference.
h. The kit’s painting guide supposedly shows Measure 31/20L, but the colors are wrong. The real pattern used two greens (Green 2, Green 3) and black on vertical surfaces, Deck Green (20-G) on horizontal surfaces.
For what it’s worth, the first five errors listed are also on the 1/35 Italeri PT 596 kit.
Photographs of the 588 boat at the ELCO plant prior to being placed in service that illustrate some of these observations can be found here: http://s73.photobucket.com/user/alross2/library/PT588?sort=3&page=1
Al Ross
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2014 - 09:39 AM UTC
That said, ...

I think ship modelers will enjoy building this kit... Not only because of its more manageable size and its level of detail ...

I should point out that in his post above, Mr. Ross has stated that the antenna trunk on the real PT-588 was square, however, I recently saw a photograph posted on FSM of the port side of the cockpit, dayroom area of the real 588 and the photo clearly shows the antenna being rounded.

Guys, this kit is really good and, in my own opinion, is better than the 1:35 monster from Italeri.

Garth
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2014 - 10:50 AM UTC
See here:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/120558802.jpg


Quoted Text

That said, ...

I think ship modelers will enjoy building this kit... Not only because of its more manageable size and its level of detail ...

I should point out that in his post above, Mr. Ross has stated that the antenna trunk on the real PT-588 was rectangular, however, I recently saw a photograph posted on FSM of the port side of the cockpit, dayroom area of the real 588 and the photo clearly shows the antenna trunk being rounded.

Guys, this kit is really good and, in my own opinion, is better than the 1:35 monster from Italeri.

Garth

Biggles2
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2014 - 03:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Merit kits are designed and molded by the same team/company that does the Trumpeter,...



Everything about the Merit kit, from the box quality, to layout of contents, and sprue labeling and protection of small parts, PE quality, instructions and color guide, screams Trumpeter!
Weebles
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2014 - 05:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

See here:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/120558802.jpg


Quoted Text

That said, ...

I think ship modelers will enjoy building this kit... Not only because of its more manageable size and its level of detail ...

I should point out that in his post above, Mr. Ross has stated that the antenna trunk on the real PT-588 was rectangular, however, I recently saw a photograph posted on FSM of the port side of the cockpit, dayroom area of the real 588 and the photo clearly shows the antenna trunk being rounded.

Guys, this kit is really good and, in my own opinion, is better than the 1:35 monster from Italeri.

Garth




Oh no, here we go again. Please stop it right now. Al's comments are correct. And there have been several observations that this kit was copied in large degree from the Italeri kit. Trust me, this is a big model in both 1/48 and 1/35 scales. Now it's time for somebody to build one and share their thoughts with us.

Dave
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 - 11:45 AM UTC
Guys, this kit is really good and, in my own opinion, is better than the 1:35 monster from Italeri.

Garth
Weebles
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 - 01:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Guys, this kit is really good and, in my own opinion, is better than the 1:35 monster from Italeri.

Garth



What do you base your comment on? Certainly not experience because you're not a modeler. You haven't built it.

The Italeri kit isn't perfect and I'm quite certain the Merit/Trumpeter release isn't either. And I say that liking both companies. The quality of the kits will be determined by the folks that build these kits and share their work and experience with us.

That said I'm looking forward to seeing some of these Merit kits built. People who know me also know that I appreciate people having fun with their builds and making them their own and sharing their work with us to enjoy. To everyone with these kits on their build list, Italeri or Merit, I'm looking forward to seeing your work.

Dave
SamGruster
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 - 10:27 PM UTC
Boys boys boys give peace a chance!

Garth you should probably change your review since a few other people have said that it is pretty obvious that the Italeri kit was the main reference Merit used and there are still a lot of people that wouldn't touch a blatant ripoff like the Merit kit just on principal. Sadly the flat top hull was a deal breaker for me. I would just make it look worse trying to fix it and it really impacts the look of the boat as can be seen in the Italeri kit when not fixed.
Weebles
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 12:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Boys boys boys give peace a chance!

Garth you should probably change your review since a few other people have said that it is pretty obvious that the Italeri kit was the main reference Merit used and there are still a lot of people that wouldn't touch a blatant ripoff like the Merit kit just on principal. Sadly the flat top hull was a deal breaker for me. I would just make it look worse trying to fix it and it really impacts the look of the boat as can be seen in the Italeri kit when not fixed.



Well Sam, think of it this way. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. From what I've read a lot of information we take for granted is still limited in China. I suspect they used the resources they could get, one of which was the Italeri kit. The mistake they made right off the bat was to use the exact same hull numbers that Italeri used. Both of which there is a significant amount of published information on. I know some folks have purchased this kit and I'll be looking forward to seeing them built an shared with the rest of us.

Dave