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For topics on PT boats, landing craft, Vietnam riverine, etc.
Merit PT
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 03:39 AM UTC
I based/base my opinion (and it is only an opinion) on several factors.

They are/were:

My looking at the different sprues
My looking at the instruction sheets
My communicating with Mr. Chin and, subsequently with Tracy White
My receiving literally hundreds of emails (from modelers from all over the world over the past several years) from modelers telling me that they would rather have a smaller kit of a PT rather than the two huge Italeri kits.

Now, to Sam, change my review because several people have said this kit was a copy of or based on the Italeri kit, implying that Italeri came up with the idea first, ...

let me restate something which Mr. Chin told me in an email:

Mr. Chin of Merit told me, in an email, something that I was not aware of ... Merit was actually developing a 1:35 kit of an Elco 80-footer at the same time Italeri was, and this what he said:



"Actually, before the 1/48 PT Boats came to the being, we had worked on 1 1/35 Elco 80ft early type in 2010. Since Italeri came out with their 1/35 Elco 80, we shelved the project for a couple of years and then decided to bring it back out in 1/48 so we will not interfere with Italeri's business. These days, with the shrinking market, it is important that same item do not have more than one manufactured kit in the market."

I'd like to also to put something into perspective here as well ... two modelers, one of whom was my friend, the late Alex Johnson and the other one is a gentleman named Wayne Traxel, who I consider as a friend and who's far-more well versed in these things than I, told me that, before the Italeri PT-596 kit, there was a 1:35 kit of a late war Elco from a company named Viking ...

I can't have and voice an opinion on a because I'm not a modeler? Hmmmm, I'll bear in mind ...
SamGruster
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 09:01 AM UTC
Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion. I just think Spock would find your logic illogical in the face of the repeated mistakes. They also make anything Mr. Chin says suspect in my opinion.

All smoke blowing aside, what is your opinion on the likelihood of two different companies coming up with a number of the same exact mistakes?
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 09:54 AM UTC
Sam,

OK ... Let me see if I understand you correctly.

You're saying that since the two kits were produced in China and share a few errors, that they are the same kit - one being in 1:35 and the other being in 1:48 - but it is the same kit. Is that what you're saying?

Why don't we put your (and others) opinion to the sniff test.

People have stated that the Mark XIIIs' fins from the Merit kit are incorrect and modelers will need to be corrected. Did I say that right?

Do the fins on the Mark XIIIs in the Italeri kit suffer from the same error?

Using logic, wouldn't the Mark XIIIs in both kits have the same error if the Merit kit was just a scaled-down knock off of the Italeri or produced by the same Chinese company?

Why would the Italeri kit have correct ones and the Merit one have incorrect ones in that case?

Additionally, when I wrote my review of the Merit kit, I knew of the claims that people were making that the 1:48 kit was nothing more than a scale-downed knock-off of the Italeri and I wanted to try and address them.

Therefore, I looked at photos of the sprue trees of the Italeri kit and I looked at the sample kit from Mr. Chin. I noticed that the Italeri kit had the after turret attached to the Dayroom structure and the Merit kit had the turret tub as a separate piece, to be attached to the Dayroom.

Again, using logic; why would the two kits have that difference if, they were the same kit, or used the same patterns?

Can you address those two points?

Why, if they used the same patterns, would Merit put incorrect torpedo fins, if their mold producer use the same patterns (and thereby inheriting all of the Italeri kit's errors in the process) when the fins on the Italeri kit's torpedoes were correct?

Wouldn't that cost them more money? Wouldn't they just say, "Hey, just scale down the Italeri kit" to save money?

And, wouldn't it also cost them more money to have the after turret separated from the Dayroom structure and molded as a separate piece?

Garth



Quoted Text

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion. I just think Spock would find your logic illogical in the face of the repeated mistakes. They also make anything Mr. Chin says suspect in my opinion.

All smoke blowing aside, what is your opinion on the likelihood of two different companies coming up with a number of the same exact mistakes?

SamGruster
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 11:23 AM UTC
Thanks for the cigar Garth. I'll answer your questions after you answer mine.
Weebles
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 01:32 PM UTC
Italeri makes their kits in Italy. They ARE NOT produced in China. It says so right on the box. The Merit kit is of course from China. When I informed my friends at Italeri about the Merit kits they were very surprised. What happened after that I don't know. Bottom line is that Italeri DID NOT collaborate with Merit/Trumpeter on this project.

The kits are not exactly the same but as noted they share many of the same mistakes. The evidence is that Italeri produced their's first. If Merit/Trumpeter wanted to produce this kit 5+ years ago they never made it public.

At the end of the day we don't know what process Merit went through to design and produce this kit. But the evidence indicates that they took some of their design ideas from an already produced kit. Which by the way isn't all that unusual.

So... let's move along and build some PT's!

Dave
TracyWhite
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 04:24 PM UTC
OK. I'll throw in.
Sam, you no likey, you no buyee. More for me.

Yes, there are similar elements and mistakes. The biggest in my opinion is the deck being straight bow to stern, the rest ain't that hard to fix.

I am building one now. It's not garbage. It's mostly engineered well - the biggest potential gotchas so far are the .50 call gun tubs. Put the day cabin and structures up on the main deck to make sure you seat them correct because there's a lack of good locating elements and you could miss-align things if you free hand it. However, if you have the day cabin and chart house structures placed on deck (temporarily, no glue needed for this part) the fit is damned near flawless. I needed no filler for mine.

If your hobby is complaining then there's a little bit in this kit for you.

If your hobby is assembling there's a lot in this kit for you.

If your hobby is building, there is a great lot of potential for you.

I've been building models since I was three, and I'm 42 now, if that matters.

I will reiterate David's last point to close my post out.
Weebles
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 - 11:29 PM UTC
Thanks for the update Tracy. Glad to hear that it's coming together well. It would be disappointing if it weren't. Would love to see some photos of your progress.
Dave
SamGruster
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Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 - 12:05 AM UTC
I did not mean to cause a fuss guys I just wanted a straight answer to a question. A question with a known answer that some modelers would find important enough to impact their buying decision. I think reviewers have a responsibility to modelers to give them the truth not multiple vague false assurances and now what I perceive as evasiveness.

Tracy I'm glad the fit of the deck to structures is good. That is something I think the Italeri kits have problems with?
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 - 12:58 AM UTC
Sam,

What question is that?

What's my opinion that 2 kits have the same amount of errors from two companies?

Cannot answer that to your satisfaction I suspect.

All I will say is, in my opinion, there are two difference that I, myself, can see and those are the torpedoes and the after turret being different than in the Italeri kit.

What's more, David stated above that the Italeri kit is produced in Italy. In which case, how could a mold maker and producer in China get a hold of a pattern?

If they used the Italeri kit as a reference and a guide? Then, how does that explain the issue with the fins on the torpedoes?
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 - 03:14 AM UTC
If you don't like it; don't buy it - that's all. I'm sure hundreds of modellers will buy it and like it. I bought one and I like it, mistakes and all.
Kornbeef
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Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 - 03:47 AM UTC
I won't buy the late model but for sure will buy the early when it's released. The variation options are so much more with that version.

What would be a brilliant marketing idea would be for Merit to release a kit of accessories like Italeri did but make it more complete with Torpedo racks etc so any variant almost could be done relatively easy.

I'm actually looking forwards to someone showing build progress pics.

Copied or not theres only a finite number of ways to mould parts. We should be thankful it's not the zillionth FW Spitfire or Tiger tank.

Keith

Weebles
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Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 - 04:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text



If they used the Italeri kit as a reference and a guide? Then, how does that explain the issue with the fins on the torpedoes?



Tracy, I could only speculate that maybe they had already engineered the aerial torpedo for another kit. To know that we would have to find similar features in some of their other products that have USN Aerial Torpedoes. After all, why do it again? From the Sprue shots I've seen Merit/Trumpeter did make this kit their own in other ways.

The message that Garth received said that they thought the 1/72 was too small and the Italeri 1/35 was too big. They clearly started this project after the Italeri kit. Al identified the same errors from the Italeri kit. The reproduced errors aren't misshapen features. They features that never existed in the prototype that they reproduced.

Okay, they used the Italeri kit as a reference. The evidence is pretty clear. So what? That's one for lawyers and companies to figure out if they bother at all. At this point, it is what it is. Both kits have errors. The modeler must decide if they want to do the research and correct the errors or leave them alone.

Personally I think it's great to have more of these PT boats available to us in these larger scales, errors and all. All kits have errors. There are lots of opportunities to really have fun with these kits because the crews did so many different things to them. As Al mentioned it would be great to see 78' and Higgins PT's in these larger scales.

Dave
plastickjunkie
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Posted: Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 05:58 AM UTC
Name me one single kit that has no errors? It's a fact that even the most expensive kits have a bunch of mistakes. I think the microscope should be put away and just build the model and make the corrections you deem necessary and have fun at it. As for me, I think is a very well detailed kit and just plan on correcting the fish fins and have a ball working on it. Things are not that serious, it's just a hobby.
TracyWhite
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Posted: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 09:35 AM UTC
As someone who has built kits and written reviews, I think that it is "right" to point out errors, because there are some that enjoy the hobby by fixing and tweaking and generally rebuilding. Others just have a need to make things as accurate as possible.

But that should be tempered with the fact that some people just want to build without worrying about technical details, and there are a whole heck of a lot of people that exist in a spectrum between the two.

Yeah, it's got issues, but I've found it mostly vice free on building. gun tubs are a little scarce on location pins / lock-ins, so I'd recommend placing the chart house and day cabin pieces on the deck and seating the tubs before gluing in place to get the alignment right. Once in, though, mine needed no filler.

David - I'll try and get some photos, but to be honest, life's had me busy and burnt out enough that I've really only been pecking at the thing and not really in the right frame of mind to want to spend a lot of time documenting the build.
viper29_ca
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Posted: Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 03:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Merit kits aren't simply the Italeri kit scaled down.

Merit kits are designed and molded by the same team/company that does the Trumpeter, Hobby Boss, and Gallery Models products, Wasan Plastics.




You're not understanding what I'm saying. It's not an exact copy. What I observed comparing the sprues is that many of the individual parts and exact copies including mistakes from the Italeri offering. There is NO doubt in my mind that they had this kit in hand when they designed this model. I'm not surprised that they scanned the Revell kit. It has a good shape after all.

Honestly if i were in their shoes I would probably do the same thing. I'm sure in China the information on this subject is limited. They have made changes as have been pointed out.

Everything I've read indicates that Wasan Plastics and Trumpeter are one in the same. The web site for Wasan is listed as http://www.trumpeter-china.com/. They're joined at the hip and as mentioned already and do work for Gallery, Hobby Boss, and others.

Now everyone relax and go build a PT Boat.
Cheers, Dave



Wasan Plastics is the parent company of Trumpeter and Hobby Boss and are the ones that do all the design and mold work for them, as well as Merit & Gallery. So joined at the hip? Yeah I guess you could say that as they are the principle owners of Trump/HB.
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Saturday, October 04, 2014 - 10:16 AM UTC
Hi Guys,

I just wanted to give you an update on the status of the build.

Due to the fact that my modeler, Stan Pienkowski is facing numerous personal in his home life, our good friend, Bobby Cicconi is taking over for Stan.

There will be updates on the build with in-progress photos to boot.

Garth
Robbd01
#323
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 08:38 PM UTC
Is there any word on the release of the early Elco 80 in 1/48 scale? I found this link http://merit-intl.com/meritnew/?dest=products&sku=MIL-64802
Says the ETA is now. Not sure if anyone has received a review kit yet.

Cheers
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Sunday, January 11, 2015 - 03:26 AM UTC
Look a few topics down in MILITARY SMALL CRAFT.

80 in 1/48 scale? I found this link http://merit-intl.com/meritnew/?dest=products&sku=MIL-64802
Says the ETA is now. Not sure if anyone has received a review kit yet.

Cheers
[/quote]
TracyWhite
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Posted: Monday, January 12, 2015 - 11:43 AM UTC
I've got a review copy I'm working on. Building is going well with few vices. It feels quicker than the late-war boat due to the decrease in forward deck clutter (guns, etc.) Should start posting a WIP on MW fairly soon, keep forgetting to grab the photos off my camera.
Robbd01
#323
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Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 - 02:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I've got a review copy I'm working on. Building is going well with few vices. It feels quicker than the late-war boat due to the decrease in forward deck clutter (guns, etc.) Should start posting a WIP on MW fairly soon, keep forgetting to grab the photos off my camera.



Post the link here when you do get the review done.

Cheers
TracyWhite
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Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 - 02:30 AM UTC
It's going to be more of a WIP - I'll post the link when I get it started, but I'm only doing it on one site. Jim's welcome to remove the link or tell me not to if he'd prefer I not.
Robbd01
#323
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Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 - 04:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It's going to be more of a WIP - I'll post the link when I get it started, but I'm only doing it on one site. Jim's welcome to remove the link or tell me not to if he'd prefer I not.



I am confused on the answer and it could be my ignorance. Not to stir things up, just PM the link to me. It has been my recent experience that PT Boat kits seem to be a touchy subject (I have links )

Cheers

TracyWhite
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 - 12:00 AM UTC
Here it is.
 _GOTOTOP