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PT 109 Question
Grauwolf
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Posted: Friday, November 14, 2014 - 09:55 PM UTC
All all,

Just wondering....PT 109......smooth plywood deck or
visible planking?

Cheers,
Joe
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Friday, November 14, 2014 - 10:33 PM UTC
That series had planked decks.
Robbd01
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Posted: Friday, November 14, 2014 - 10:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

That series had planked decks.



Wait What??!? I thought it was smooth deck. I even followed a link http://modelshipwrights.kitmaker.net/forums/202180&ord=&page=5 that reinforced that idea. Also Garth I have your book... it says smoooooooth

Cheers
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Friday, November 14, 2014 - 11:48 PM UTC
Well, I was proven wrong on that. That series did have planks but they were barely visible.
Robbd01
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Posted: Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 12:02 AM UTC
Well, I guess that is good news 'cause now I don't have to sand the deck of my Revell 109 smooth.

Cheers
alross2
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Posted: Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 12:03 AM UTC
Planked, but smoothly finished. Keep in mind that ELCO was a yacht-building company and their joinery was high quality. Plywood decks did not appear on the 80' ELCOs until the 486 boats.

Here are two construction photos taken sometime prior to May, 1943. The boat with 3474 on the charthouse and day cabin is PT 339. You can just barely see the planks in the shot looking at the charthouse face and not at all in the view of 339. Neither boat has been given its final coat of paint in these photos.




Al Ross
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 12:47 AM UTC
Well, modelers like the late Alex Johnson and Wayne Traxel would say to sand the planking to a more acceptable level. There's a book about the Revell kits in which Mr. Johnson described how he did that, sir.
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 01:00 AM UTC
Here:

http://www.amazon.com/Revell-Boat-Kits-Plastic-Review/dp/1621650057%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAJBDF5XQBATGDX4VQ%26tag%3Dspea06-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D1621650057
Robbd01
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Posted: Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 05:01 PM UTC



Yep that is the book I was talking about. I bought it when I picked up the Revell kit.

Cheers
BM2
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Posted: Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 05:42 PM UTC
Planned, remember that the PTs were boats not ships and were considered expendable, maintenance would have been difficult in forward operating areas, so unless you are. Building a fresh off the line boat I would imagine some wear and tear on the decks. Wooden decks tend to wrap and flex a little which would increase the gaps on the planks.
Grauwolf
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Posted: Saturday, November 15, 2014 - 11:52 PM UTC
Just got back from out of town since posting the question.

Sorry for the late response.

Thank you all, for clarifying...this will really help with an upcoming project.

Cheers,
Joe
alross2
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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 12:13 AM UTC
Some pix of boats after months in combat:
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Al Ross
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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 06:00 AM UTC
Is the 150 green, blue or what?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 11:12 AM UTC
Joe,
I have a friend (who recently passed away)who did extensive research on the 109 and 596 boats in prep for building the Italeri 1/35 kits. He corresponded regularly with two of the PT boat associations and spoke with several PT boat veterans. The Elco boats had a wood planked deck but it was covered with a heavily painted canvas as a protection and weatherproofing. I believe there is a photo attached to this forum log which shows one with a deck shot up, exposing the deck under the canvas. Therefore, the deck planking should not be visible at all. There is a White Ensign detail set available for Revell's PT 109, and in the instructions it says to sand off the raised planking as it was covered by the canvas. It's a very detailed set, and I recommend it highly for the 1/72 kit. If you're building the 109, I recommend the National Geographic book "Collision with History", it has some good photos of early Elco Boats. VR, Russ
Grauwolf
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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 01:20 PM UTC
Thanks, Russ
Cheers,
Joe
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 07:12 PM UTC
Russ,

Canvas decking?

Who's your late friend?


Quoted Text

Joe,
I have a friend (who recently passed away)who did extensive research on the 109 and 596 boats in prep for building the Italeri 1/35 kits. He corresponded regularly with two of the PT boat associations and spoke with several PT boat veterans. The Elco boats had a wood planked deck but it was covered with a heavily painted canvas as a protection and weatherproofing. I believe there is a photo attached to this forum log which shows one with a deck shot up, exposing the deck under the canvas. Therefore, the deck planking should not be visible at all. There is a White Ensign detail set available for Revell's PT 109, and in the instructions it says to sand off the raised planking as it was covered by the canvas. It's a very detailed set, and I recommend it highly for the 1/72 kit. If you're building the 109, I recommend the National Geographic book "Collision with History", it has some good photos of early Elco Boats. VR, Russ

Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 08:47 PM UTC
[quote]Russ,

Canvas decking?

Who's your late friend?

TGarth,
His name was Paul Russom, and he passed away on October 20th 2014 of cancer. Paul had been in contact with an east coast based PT boat association, and with a PT boat veterans group. He had received quite a lot of information on the early Elco boats. Paul was 68 when he passed away. He borrowed my Revell kit of the 109, and had purchased several books in anticipation of building the Italeri 596 and 109 (converted to PT 103)boats. He was starting to work on PT 103 when he passed. The discussion of the deck had come up many times since the Revell kit has an engraved deck, and he specifically asked one of the PT veterans why many photos show smooth decking without any trace of seams. The veteran told him the wood decks were overlaid at the factory with heavily painted canvas glued to the deck for weatherproofing and non-skid properties. I believe if you look at the photos Mr. Ross sent there is one of a shot up deck that exposes the underlying wood deck (light colored areas), with small pieces of the dark canvas torn away. Paul went so far as to check on a boat that was converted into a yacht here in our home town of Gig Harbor WA. This boat may have gone to Portland, Oregon and was eventually restored to its wartime appearance. He said the boat yard told him in order to convert the boat to a yacht, the canvas had to be peeled away from the decking to expose the wood, confirming what the veteran had told him. It makes sense the boats were given some sort of deck coating, given the requirement for crews to walk slippery decks while at speed. It's a shame there are not many boats surviving today, they were mostly destroyed on site by the Navy in 1945. I had the opportunity to travel to Gaudalcanal (on a military recovery mission) and Mbanika Island in the Solomon Islands many years ago. Mbanika was established as a PT boat base in 1943, and in the water off the ramp there must be 20 Packard engines and prop shafts lined up where the boats were stripped and sunk along with hundreds of Coke bottles! I had a Navy Petty Officer in my group that pointed out the entire boat ramp (constructed post war by the island residents) was made up of long PT boat prop shafts! VR,Russ
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 09:07 PM UTC
That is very interesting, sir. The late Alex Johnson also told me that the decks were often clad in painted canvas. But, PT experts would tell us that information was incorrect and it should be disregarded.

Interesting. Thank you.

Garth


[quote]
Quoted Text

Russ,

Canvas decking?

Who's your late friend?

TGarth,
His name was Paul Russom, and he passed away on October 20th 2014 of cancer. Paul had been in contact with an east coast based PT boat association, and with a PT boat veterans group. He had received quite a lot of information on the early Elco boats. Paul was 68 when he passed away. He borrowed my Revell kit of the 109, and had purchased several books in anticipation of building the Italeri 596 and 109 (converted to PT 103)boats. He was starting to work on PT 103 when he passed. The discussion of the deck had come up many times since the Revell kit has an engraved deck, and he specifically asked one of the PT veterans why many photos show smooth decking without any trace of seams. The veteran told him the wood decks were overlaid at the factory with heavily painted canvas glued to the deck for weatherproofing and non-skid properties. I believe if you look at the photos Mr. Ross sent there is one of a shot up deck that exposes the underlying wood deck (light colored areas), with small pieces of the dark canvas torn away. Paul went so far as to check on a boat that was converted into a yacht here in our home town of Gig Harbor WA. This boat may have gone to Portland, Oregon and was eventually restored to its wartime appearance. He said the boat yard told him in order to convert the boat to a yacht, the canvas had to be peeled away from the decking to expose the wood, confirming what the veteran had told him. It makes sense the boats were given some sort of deck coating, given the requirement for crews to walk slippery decks while at speed. It's a shame there are not many boats surviving today, they were mostly destroyed on site by the Navy in 1945. I had the opportunity to travel to Gaudalcanal (on a military recovery mission) and Mbanika Island in the Solomon Islands many years ago. Mbanika was established as a PT boat base in 1943, and in the water off the ramp there must be 20 Packard engines and prop shafts lined up where the boats were stripped and sunk along with hundreds of Coke bottles! I had a Navy Petty Officer in my group that pointed out the entire boat ramp (constructed post war by the island residents) was made up of long PT boat prop shafts! VR,Russ

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Posted: Sunday, November 16, 2014 - 10:28 PM UTC
Sorry Russ, but nowhere in the instructions for our PE set does it say the decks were canvas covered. It says that the Revell kit deck requires sanding as the original decks were "close-planked."
TAFFY3
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Posted: Monday, November 17, 2014 - 12:39 AM UTC
I'm very curious about the 20mm mounted in the forward gun tub on this boat.



Anyone have pictures, drawings, or info about just how it was mounted? It would make an interesting modification. Al
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, November 17, 2014 - 12:51 AM UTC
Garth, John,
I can only tell you what I was told by Paul, who got it from a veteran, and some folks who worked on a boat here after WWII. It does make sense though, since it was a common practice in the Maritime industry before WWII for many small boat manufactures. My brother owned a small 1935 (about half the size of a PT boat) boat here in the 60s, and it had painted canvas stretched and glued onto the weather decks for traction since there were no rails, like a PT boat. I've also seen it done on small vintage sailboats. It was a fairly common practice in the old days before polymer non skid surfaces came into vogue. Looking at that photo of the shot up deck, you can see what looks like some kind of coating, it splits for a ways along the planks but then goes completely smooth again, and at the bottom of the photo, there is a small patch of what looks like wood (below the hatch) with a corresponding piece of dark material. Given what they used to do pre-war, along with veteran statements, I'd go with the canvas glued to the deck. It's too bad there doesent seem to be any specs any more. Did the Navy dispose of those just like the boats? John, your WEM set is superb. It was Paul's assertion that the deck was to be sanded smooth in the instructions because WEM might have known about the canvas coating. My mistake. VR Russ
alross2
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Posted: Monday, November 17, 2014 - 03:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Given what they used to do pre-war, along with veteran statements, I'd go with the canvas glued to the deck.



The ELCO type section drawings for this group of boats do not show any exterior fabric cover. They do, however, indicate the layer of fabric and glue between the inner and outer layers of decking. The drawings for the plywood decked boats do not show the fabric covering either. The tech specs for the plywood decked boats state: Decks shall be primed, fastening holes filled with Navy formula 62 smoothing cement Navy Dept. Spec. 52C25 and finished with two coats nonskid deck paint, in accordance with latest camouflage instructions


Al Ross
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Monday, November 17, 2014 - 04:38 AM UTC
Whoa, wait a minute ... you'd go with the canvas glued to the deck? Excuse me, but What the heck!?

Mr. Ross, a few years ago you jumped on me for bringing this topic and told everyone that I was wrong for even talking about it and told me that I was wrong about it ...

And, now - you go with it?



Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Given what they used to do pre-war, along with veteran statements, I'd go with the canvas glued to the deck.



The ELCO type section drawings for this group of boats do not show any exterior fabric cover. They do, however, indicate the layer of fabric and glue between the inner and outer layers of decking. The drawings for the plywood decked boats do not show the fabric covering either. The tech specs for the plywood decked boats state: Decks shall be primed, fastening holes filled with Navy formula 62 smoothing cement Navy Dept. Spec. 52C25 and finished with two coats nonskid deck paint, in accordance with latest camouflage instructions


Al Ross

Robbd01
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Posted: Monday, November 17, 2014 - 04:50 AM UTC
Oh Boy - here we go again
alross2
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Posted: Monday, November 17, 2014 - 05:15 AM UTC
Sorry guys. It would appear that Garth isn't reading what was written.

One of the military small craft that did have canvas-covered decks was the 63' aviation rescue boat originally designed by Miami Shipbuilding. According to the Tech Order for the Model 416 type, the main deck (3/4" plywood) and cockpit were covered with 12-ounce canvas laid in marine glue. They're neat looking boats and I'd love to see someone come out with a kit.

Al Ross
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