I know that there were sister ships to the USS Constitution built, the USS United States, USS Constellation, USS President, USS Congress and USS Chesapeake. Were they identical or just all built at the same time and about the same size? The gun number does vary.
Would it be possible to change a USS Constitution into the other ships?
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USS Constitution's sister ships
AikinutNY
Joined: October 21, 2003
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Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:31 AM UTC
gator
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#027
Joined: April 13, 2005
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Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 11:58 AM UTC
redshirt
Joined: January 26, 2007
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Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 12:12 PM UTC
I think that they are all sister ships because on 27 Mar 1794 all six frigates were authorized to be built. Frigate as a term used back then in a broad and general way means a three masted ship, ship rigged having only one gun deck. The forecastle, quarterdeck and gang ways may or may not have guns but are not considered gun decks.
On tonnage alone I don’t thin any of the others could pass for the Constitution. The United States and the President might be interchangable . A good place to start looking is the Navel Historical Center.
USS Constitution 2,200-ton
USS United States, a 1576-ton
USS Constellation 1,265 tons
USS President 1,576
USS Congress, a 1,867-ton
USS Chesapeake 1244 tons
http://www.history.navy.mil/
On tonnage alone I don’t thin any of the others could pass for the Constitution. The United States and the President might be interchangable . A good place to start looking is the Navel Historical Center.
USS Constitution 2,200-ton
USS United States, a 1576-ton
USS Constellation 1,265 tons
USS President 1,576
USS Congress, a 1,867-ton
USS Chesapeake 1244 tons
http://www.history.navy.mil/
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 12:42 PM UTC
In those days ships were rated by the nominal number of guns they carried. While all the US frigates were just that, frigates, they had two different rates, 44 gun and 38 gun. The Constitution and the United States were 44 gun, the Constellation, Congress, President, and Chesapeake, were all 38 gun. Only the United States could pass for the Constitution.
Contrary to what many believe the Constellation that is on display in Baltimore is the 2nd ship of that name, a sloop of war, not the frigate that won two victories against the French in the undeclared war.
One thing I've never really understood is why a ship would be rated at 44 guns, like the Constitution, yet really carry 54 guns, 32-24 pounders and 20-32 pound carronades? I've heard it that carronades didn't count, but even so the numbers don't match.
One last thing.
Just the other day I saw a show on International History Channel where some modern day Royal Navy officer repeated the old slander that the American frigates were cut down ships of the line. They were no such thing. They were frigates pure and simple. The British wanted to salve their pride about being defeated one on one by mere American frigates.
Contrary to what many believe the Constellation that is on display in Baltimore is the 2nd ship of that name, a sloop of war, not the frigate that won two victories against the French in the undeclared war.
One thing I've never really understood is why a ship would be rated at 44 guns, like the Constitution, yet really carry 54 guns, 32-24 pounders and 20-32 pound carronades? I've heard it that carronades didn't count, but even so the numbers don't match.
One last thing.
Just the other day I saw a show on International History Channel where some modern day Royal Navy officer repeated the old slander that the American frigates were cut down ships of the line. They were no such thing. They were frigates pure and simple. The British wanted to salve their pride about being defeated one on one by mere American frigates.
RickHeinbaugh
Joined: April 26, 2007
KitMaker: 73 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 02:15 PM UTC
If I may beg to differ,
Of that original group of six frigates, three were 44 gun ships - Constitution, United States and President, and three were 38 gun ships, Constellation, Congress and Chesapeake.
As Rodger says, the actual numbers carried by any of the ships don't match their stated rates, but that was typical worldwide for that period. The carronade and smaller bowchaser guns were added or subtracted at the commander's wish, sometimes to improve handling, sometimes because of availability, and sometimes because a gun was the property of the commander.
Constitution and President were said to be physically identical. United States was identical to them for a considerable part of her short career, but one commander had an extra "round house" (we might call it a "poop deck") built just aft of the mizzen mast to house the commodore. It harmed the ship's already lesser sailing capabilities and was removed after a short while, but it gives us something different to do with a Constitution kit.
There are many lively discussions to be found at the Fine Scale Modeler forum at http://cs.finescale.com/forums/ with some real expert modeler opinions to be found.
An excellent book on this topic is "Six Frigates", by Ian W. Toll, Norton Publishing, copyright 2006.
Rick
Of that original group of six frigates, three were 44 gun ships - Constitution, United States and President, and three were 38 gun ships, Constellation, Congress and Chesapeake.
As Rodger says, the actual numbers carried by any of the ships don't match their stated rates, but that was typical worldwide for that period. The carronade and smaller bowchaser guns were added or subtracted at the commander's wish, sometimes to improve handling, sometimes because of availability, and sometimes because a gun was the property of the commander.
Constitution and President were said to be physically identical. United States was identical to them for a considerable part of her short career, but one commander had an extra "round house" (we might call it a "poop deck") built just aft of the mizzen mast to house the commodore. It harmed the ship's already lesser sailing capabilities and was removed after a short while, but it gives us something different to do with a Constitution kit.
There are many lively discussions to be found at the Fine Scale Modeler forum at http://cs.finescale.com/forums/ with some real expert modeler opinions to be found.
An excellent book on this topic is "Six Frigates", by Ian W. Toll, Norton Publishing, copyright 2006.
Rick
allycat
Joined: October 03, 2004
KitMaker: 942 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 11:03 PM UTC
Hi All,
I believe that, in the Royal Navy at least, the rating (number of guns listed) was also tied into the number of crew allowed for the type of vessel (not sure but I think a 38 gun, 18pdr frigate would have a FULL complement of 320. Something that was almost never achieved) .
More guns = more crew which the ship's captain would have to feed and provision himself somehow given that a frigate would be stored for X ammount of people for Y ammount of months, space would be short for extra consumables, not to mention gunpowder and shot etc. and it must be remembered that although on paper ships of the same class should be virtually identical different building yards added differences without the Admiralty's knowledge (I'm talking about just a round up or round down of a measurement here).
So some captains refused to mount extra carronades or even bigger carronades (more people needed to serve them in action) if offered to them because of the above problems.
hope to have been of assistance.
Tom
I believe that, in the Royal Navy at least, the rating (number of guns listed) was also tied into the number of crew allowed for the type of vessel (not sure but I think a 38 gun, 18pdr frigate would have a FULL complement of 320. Something that was almost never achieved) .
More guns = more crew which the ship's captain would have to feed and provision himself somehow given that a frigate would be stored for X ammount of people for Y ammount of months, space would be short for extra consumables, not to mention gunpowder and shot etc. and it must be remembered that although on paper ships of the same class should be virtually identical different building yards added differences without the Admiralty's knowledge (I'm talking about just a round up or round down of a measurement here).
So some captains refused to mount extra carronades or even bigger carronades (more people needed to serve them in action) if offered to them because of the above problems.
hope to have been of assistance.
Tom
jowady
Joined: June 12, 2006
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
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KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Model Shipwrights: 51 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 01:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Constitution and President were said to be physically identical. United States was identical to them for a considerable part of her short career, but one commander had an extra "round house" (we might call it a "poop deck") built just aft of the mizzen mast to house the commodore. It harmed the ship's already lesser sailing capabilities and was removed after a short while, but it gives us something different to do with a Constitution kit.
Rick
While there were minor differences between the three 44 gun frigates they were considered the same class. Constitution and President were closest. United States Had a "coach" added during construction, this altered her stern design quite a bit. I have never seen that this, including the poop deck, were ever removed. This affected her balance, and disrupted her sailing qualities, in fact she was often referred to as the "old war wagon." Constitution mounted 32 pounder carronades during the War of 1812, her sisters had 42 pounders.
John
allycat
Joined: October 03, 2004
KitMaker: 942 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 08:22 PM UTC
Hi All,
I realise I've been misleading in my above post.
A captain would have had to fight any extra guns and manouver his ship in combat with just the vessel's complement (or as close to it as his press gangs managed to get it). So any over 'establishment' cannon or carronades would have meant less crew serving each gun, making reloading slower.
Tom
I realise I've been misleading in my above post.
A captain would have had to fight any extra guns and manouver his ship in combat with just the vessel's complement (or as close to it as his press gangs managed to get it). So any over 'establishment' cannon or carronades would have meant less crew serving each gun, making reloading slower.
Tom
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 07:41 AM UTC
At one time someone (Revell I think) had a large kit of the United States with the extra length thing at the stern. You might try a look on ebay
Edit: Revell made/makes one in 150 scale I saw one on ebay running less the $25
Edit: Revell made/makes one in 150 scale I saw one on ebay running less the $25
RickHeinbaugh
Joined: April 26, 2007
KitMaker: 73 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:33 AM UTC
Aack - I shouldn't have said United States had a short career; it was President which was captured by the British and scrapped shortly after because they determined her to have been too badly damaged subsequent to the grounding in the stom when she was captured from Stephen Decatur..
However - about the roundhouse on United States, I was thinking of this discussion : http://cs.finescale.com/forums/750061/ShowPost.aspx, where the 22 Feb posting and the reference to a plan view of United States dated "1830s" in "Sailing Warships of the US Navy", a book that I don't believe I have. So I was accepting their position that the roundhouse was removed; it certainly makes sense if it harmed the ship's sailing qualities and didn't contribute anything as a gun platform. But again, it does make something for us to show on a model to distinguish from the Cosntitution.
Rick
However - about the roundhouse on United States, I was thinking of this discussion : http://cs.finescale.com/forums/750061/ShowPost.aspx, where the 22 Feb posting and the reference to a plan view of United States dated "1830s" in "Sailing Warships of the US Navy", a book that I don't believe I have. So I was accepting their position that the roundhouse was removed; it certainly makes sense if it harmed the ship's sailing qualities and didn't contribute anything as a gun platform. But again, it does make something for us to show on a model to distinguish from the Cosntitution.
Rick
jowady
Joined: June 12, 2006
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Model Shipwrights: 51 posts
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Model Shipwrights: 51 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 02:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Aack - I shouldn't have said United States had a short career; it was President which was captured by the British and scrapped shortly after because they determined her to have been too badly damaged subsequent to the grounding in the stom when she was captured from Stephen Decatur..
However - about the roundhouse on United States, I was thinking of this discussion : http://cs.finescale.com/forums/750061/ShowPost.aspx, where the 22 Feb posting and the reference to a plan view of United States dated "1830s" in "Sailing Warships of the US Navy", a book that I don't believe I have. So I was accepting their position that the roundhouse was removed; it certainly makes sense if it harmed the ship's sailing qualities and didn't contribute anything as a gun platform. But again, it does make something for us to show on a model to distinguish from the Cosntitution.
Rick
As is pointed out in another post, Melville of "Moby Dick" fame, who served in United States in the late 1840s, mentions the roundhouse. Chappelle, in The History of the American Sailing Navy never mentions the removal of this item. Incidently, he places the appearence of the roundhouse as happening during costruction/fitting out, and as being done by her then Captain.
John
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