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ELCO Boat PT 103, 109 or 117 Questions
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 04:50 AM UTC
Hi folks,

Thanks to Allied Torpedo Boats I feel I know a bit more about the Italeri kit and the boat in general.

I've held off starting this kit as I wanted an example with a clear fore-deck and I think these 3 options give me that. So I'm looking for any other infomration on fixes and changes that might be required on the earlier boats.

I've looked at the Lion Roar and Eduard PE sets and a lot wouldn't be necessary, although a lot would be useful. Any thoughts there, or any other sets available?

Thanks

Al

TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:16 AM UTC
Alan,

Do you mean to backdate the Italeri kit? I asked that because of the manufacturers of the aftermarket accessories you mentioned; i.e.: Lion Roar and Eduard PE sets ...

If so ... there is a lot of work involved in backdating that kit to a 103 Class boat.

If you're looking to do an early boat? I'd suggest using the 1:72 Revell 109/117 kit and utilizing the WEM PE fret ... Just my two cents - or as you'd say Alan, my two pence.............

Garth
robtmelvin
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:20 AM UTC
Alan, as I understand your post you are interested in back dating the Italieri kit to a 103 Class boat. The "go to guy" for P.T. boats is Garth Connelly here on this site. Garth is a great guy and very willing to help. He has several published works on the subject. Check out his web site: www.ptboatworld.com There is a wealth of P.T. boat information there.
One major change you will need to make, and I am by no means the expert Garth is, will be the torpedo tubes. Late war boats had roll off racks. The 103 Class boats had Mk.IV torpedoes in tubes. Also, the 103's had a single 20mm Oerlikon cannon on a pedestal mount on the stern, plus the classic twin .50's in the two turrets, fore and aft. Garth can give you all the info you need to convert, but I suspect you will have to do a lot of scratch building to get where you want to be.
Hope this helps some.
Bob
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:22 AM UTC
Hi Garth,

That was the plan, I really like the look of the earlier boats. I struggle with 1/35 scale so anything smaller would never get built .

Al
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:44 AM UTC
Bob and Alan,

Thanks, but believe you me, I am in no way an expert on these things. I believe there is a write up on how a modeler built PT-109 from the Italeri kit on www.ptboatworld.com, I can't remember ...

Also in the new CW book on Allied torpedo boats by John Lambert and Les Brown, there are a few pages on a model of PT-174 from the Italeri kit. Maybe you can use that a guide, up until he puts the shielded 40mm on the foredeck.

Additionally, I would suggest you get a set of the drawings done by Ross of the 109 or 103. They will be of help to you, Alan.

Plus, email me offsite and I'll try to help you.

Garth
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:48 AM UTC
Alan ...

Here:

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1/35 SCALE PT 109 CONVERSION
Model and Article by Steve Sobieralski



click photos to see larger images

This is my conversion of the Italeri 1/35 PT Boat kit to PT 109. The model is meant to represent her as she was on the famous night of August 1-2, 1943, prior to being rammed and cut in two by the Japanese destroyer Amagiri.



Built straight from the box, the Italeri kit depicts PT 596, a very late production 80' Elco boat. PT 109, on the other hand, was one of the earliest 80' boats built, and though the early and late boats share the same hull, running gear and basic layout above the deck line, there are actually a large amount of detail differences between the two.



Apart from the hull, propellers and shafts, rudders, and mufflers, the only parts from the kit that could be used unmodified were the smoke generator, 50 cal machine guns and mounts, and some deck fittings such as cleats and bitts. Everything else had to be either modified from the kit parts or built from scratch.



The four torpedo tubes required the major scratchbuilding effort as each one contains over 200 individual pieces. I was able to expedite the process somewhat by making a master of the breech, which has some rather complex webbed bracing, and casting copies in resin. Other scratchbuilt parts were the foredeck vents, depth charges and racks, early type mast, new engine room companionway and 20mm cannon base, sight and shoulder brackets.



There are also modifications to the charthouse-bridge area, including relocating the 50 cal machine gun mount forward and modified windshield and spray shields and a new instrument panel. The day cabin and engine room hatch area were also reworked.



I also used some of the Eduard PE set for PT 596 as well as their 1/35 50 cal ammo belts for the gun turrets. Unfortunately, the very nice PE deadlight frames provided with the kit could not be used as they were the later 3-bar type, so I had to scratchbuild the earlier 2-bar type from plastic strips. The 37mm anti-tank gun is a very nice 1/35 resin kit by Trakz.



While recognizing that building a truly accurate replica of PT 109 on the night she was sunk is not possible due to the lack of documentation, what I have tried to do is build a model that is at least consistent with the few photos and descriptions of PT 109 that are available.



What I did not attempt was any major weathering or depiction of any of the repairs and/or damage that PT 109 was known to have undergone. I'm just not very good at those techniques and I'm sure the model depicts the boat as much cleaner and less "beat up" than she actually was. My main references for the basic PT 103 boat were the plans and manual from the 1/48 Bluejacket kit, Allied Coastal Forces, and, in varying degrees, most of the other well-known books and publications on the subject.









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TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 06:49 AM UTC
Alan,

I've also emailed you that article.

Garth
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 07:13 AM UTC
Hi Garth,

Thanks for all the info. Sound like a good few years work there , but could well be all the more enjoyable for it. I have Als plans for PT 109 which I can enlarge and provided I can find the info on the mods I might well give it a go.

I'll check my emails thanks Garth.

Al
alross2
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 12:55 PM UTC
In 2007, I put together a package for modelers wanting to backdate the Italeri kit to the first group. The package included a set of plans for PT103 in 1/35 scale, a series of weapons drawings in 1/17.5 scale, and seven pages of text, photos, and drawings. It's still available from http://www.coastalforcesplans.com

Here's part of the text, which will give you a basic idea of the work ahead of you:

What changes to the PT 596 kit do I have to make to backdate it to the first series boats?

To backdate the kit to the original 80’ ELCO configuration, at a minimum the following changes need to be made:

The foredeck vents must be replaced with the earlier non-articulated style.
Both .50 caliber turrets have to be cut from their bulkheads. The entire tubular portions below the base rings must be replaced. The forward turret has to be moved forward about 5/8” and both turrets set vertical.
The cockpit instrument panel must to be completely revised.
The existing cockpit spray shields must be replaced.
The light traps on the forward face of the chart house must be eliminated.
For the 103-196 series, the engine room hatch should be discarded and a new one created from sheet styrene. A new engine room access hatch must be scratch-built and new ready service lockers, spray shields, and cowl vents attached.
For the 314-367 series, trim pieces 19D and 20D to the width of the hatch on 19D and flatten the deadlight in the hatch.
The simulated cable on the day cabin roof must be removed, along with the radar and radome support.
The depression rail for the 40mm must be replaced by one of a totally different size and shape for the 20mm.
The tripod for the kit’s 20mm mount must be replaced with a MK4 mount’s pedestal.
Four MK18 torpedo tubes must be scratch-built.
A new mast must be scratch-built.
The smoke generator must be moved to the fantail.
An oval raft must be scratch-built and added to the foredeck.

Other details need to be added/removed/modified, etc., so check the plans closely.

The earlier boats went through a wide range of modifications, primarily in armament and camouflage, so you may want to make additional changes to the kit to reflect a specific boat at a given point in time. To do this, you really need to find photos of the desired boat and work from them.
[i]put italicized text here


Al Ross
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 05:57 PM UTC
Hi Al,

Thank you for the information, as alwasys megga detail.

I shall check out the link.

Thanks again.

Al
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 - 02:57 AM UTC
Hi Garth and Al,

Thanks folks for all the info. Lots to think on.

There are a number of possibilities here, I could simply leave the guns off the fore-deck and build the kit as is ie awaitng armament which would be the easier option and still give me the type of finish I want, but I do like the look of the earlier boats. Time isn't an issue, whether or not I have the skill probably is.

But I like a challenge and if you don't try you don't learn, so I'll be intouch folks. Even if I get stumpted I can always finish it as a boat being built or awaiting armament.

I saw somewhere recently, when I was wandering around the net, a set of depth charges, might have been U models, have to check and I believe the Accurate Armour's 20mm is on the Mk 4 mount and I have one of those already. These rest I suppose I can learn as I go.

Is there a link to the boat histories? Alwasy a good incentive and inspiration to learn the history a bit first.

Cheers

Al

TAFFY3
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Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 - 03:10 AM UTC
Hello Alan, (Just to toss my two cents in) If you look at the Italeri kits' deck, there are a number of unused decklights. These are hidden under other parts during construction. However,they would be exposed on a '109' class boat. This might be a clue that Italeri was leaving open the option of releasing an early type boat. Molds are expensive and companies like to get the most use out of them. This is just supposition on my part, but who knows? , Al
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 - 04:52 AM UTC
Hi Al,

An early boat would be popular and Murphy's law would dictate that if I do all the work a plastic example would most certainly come along .

More food for thought.

Thanks

Al
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 - 06:17 AM UTC
Alan,

Histories of the boats? Yes, the organization called PT BOATS, INC from Germantown, Tennessee here in the US can provide you with that data. Their website is www.ptboats.org ...

Garth
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, November 19, 2010 - 09:06 AM UTC
Thanks Garth,

Lots more reading to do.

Al
blaster76
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Posted: Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 10:33 PM UTC
Well Alan if you are right that if you start doing this conversion, then they will release it...HURRY UP !!!!! LOL
AlanL
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Posted: Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 11:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Well Alan if you are right that if you start doing this conversion, then they will release it...HURRY UP !!!!! LOL





Al
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