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General Ship Modeling
Discuss modeling techniques, experiences, and ship modeling in general.
Do ships get a fair shake at model shows?
steve-o
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 02:32 AM UTC
Hello,

I'm just wondering if other people share the same frustrations at model shows in regards to ship entries. (If I'm just getting old and cranky, let me know)

I have heard judges say "I'd love to try building in 1/48th, but I can hardly see 1/35th, haha!" And I wonder...how can you hope to judge 1/700??

At one show, there were about 15 ships, some really nice. (this show does not give out 1,2,3rd place, but gold, silver, or bronze based on the traits of the model.) The only one that won was a 1/72 sub.

Compared to Armor and Aircraft, do you think the lower number of ship models (and modellers) adversly effect the judging at shows? I don't want to sound like I'm just upset, some of mine have done pretty well. I'm just left scratching my head more often than not.

- Steve
CaptSonghouse
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 05:38 AM UTC
Hi Steve!

I presume the shows you attend do not have awards set aside for different categories? On the face of it, I would agree that attempting to find commonality of craftsmanship between a 1:32 jet and a 1:700 battleship can only go so far. The size differential does put ships at a disadvantage.

Another problem is the bias of the individual judge. Since it's safe to say that in most regions aircraft and armor entries outnumber nautical ones, the judges are more likely to be devotees of the non-naval genres and hence have little to go on when viewing a ship beyond evaluating assembly technique. In my competitive modeling years, I was once drafted into being a judge at a regional event and I beheld a judge who wanted to downgrade a beautifully crafted British Rolls-Royce gun car because the 'gatling gun' in the turret didn't have enough definition between the barrels. I patiently pointed out that he was looking instead at a water-jacketed Vickers and the so-called barrels were the indentations on the single water jacket around the single barrel.

At any rate, in a nautical environment like San Diego, we at least have a strong field for ship subjects in local shows, so maybe you can't fight geography.

--Karl
TAFFY3
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 08:01 AM UTC
Every show, and every judge is different. What may hold true at one event doesn't necessarily happen at others. I've been a judge at many regional shows in the NYC area and have always kept an open mind about whatever subject I may be judging, be it ships, A/C, or armor, as do most judges I know. The only time a ship should be judged against a model from a different category is for the Best of Show. The most important thing I've learned is that judges are human and therefore fallible. If you see something that seems unfair or questionable during judging, ask to speak to the chief judge about it. Unfortunately, at some shows there are a few 'home town judges' who will reward the work of a fellow club member over that of a stranger. Thankfully it has been my experience that they are few and far between. Al
MartinJQuinn
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 08:38 AM UTC
Concur with what Taffy3 said. At our annual show, Mosquitocon, held in Wayne NJ every spring, we've had ships repeatedly win Best in Show.
Dougiedog
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 08:44 AM UTC
I find the problem can be too few entries, which means all the ships are put in together so you have a mixture of scales and types all in the same class.

I suppose one way around it is to put boats (i.e. 1/35 biber or seehund) into a land based diorama and call it a military dio?

But a good ship knocks spots off any aeroplane!

cheers
Adam
TGarthConnelly
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 09:16 AM UTC
I've only been to a few IPMS shows since the mid-1990s and the thing I have come away with from them is that what I personally have seen ...

Ships are always stuck in the back corner ...

So, could that perception feed into guys saying ... why build ships - I'm going to build aircraft and armor because they're always up front.

But, that's only an opinion.

Garth
TAFFY3
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 12:38 PM UTC
[Quoted text] Ships are always stuck in the back corner ...

I know from experience that display space at a show is allotted according to the number of entries in any given category. At most of the shows I've attended in my area, it is Aircraft, Armor, and Cars that are the most numerous entries. I don't know why ship models aren't more in evidence, lack of builders I would think. Personally, I would like to build a 1/350 scale ship, but I know that it would be an exercise in frustration due to my limited ability to work easily with really tiny parts. I don't know if that prevents other modellers from building more ships, but 1/72 used to be the most popular scale for aircraft, now as the average modelers age increases, it is 1/48 and even 1/32 that are becoming more popular scales. Then again, it just may be that more modelers find aircraft, armor, and cars, 'sexier' and more attractive than ships. Al
Adamskii
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Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 12:30 AM UTC
I am an armour and diorama dedicated competition addicted model builder.

When I walk into a show, I know what i want to look at and what I want to see. Ships, Im sorry to say are not top priority, but horses for courses - the question posed was about judging being adversly effected by low numbers.

I think that may have some merit in that statement. Low number entry categories (sometimes figures, vignettes, sci fi, trucks, civillian planes etc) do not get the premium judges allocated to score them. I mean that when the chief judge allocates his teams, he most like sends his best judges to the biggest and hardest sections to judge first, and as he goes down the list the less qualified or less experienced may get the lowwer entry categories and that by default means that having less entries in the section (in this case ships) means the quality of the judging may be adversly effected - proving the statement to be true.
The fewer number of entries in a given category is easier to judge because it requires less moderation (comparison of score). Sometimes its quite obvious what is gold silver bronze... in big categories there may be several challengers for the top titles.

Ok so thats out the way, I must also add, I respect ship builders very much but as far as military ships go, am quite ignorant of what I am looking at to be able to appreciate them. I dont know a ww1 from a ww2 battleship etc. And generally my interest would be only as deep as a quick perusal to see quality of workman ship rather than appreciate the subject matter. Consider that fact too - If the judge has no knowledge of the subject matter, he probably isnt interested in it but also not knowledgable enough to appreciate accurizing of parts , addition of photo etch etc, and certainly knowing wherre to look for common faults or issues and would rely heavily on the judging schedule.

Ship models scare me a bit because I dont know whow much work they take. If they take a good solid year or two and I am competing against them, Its an unknown for me and my 3 - 6 month quick build.

One thing that makes comparing ships and planes or armour is that large scale vehicles versus micro scale ones do not use same techniques in painting. I mean by that scale weathering in particular. the 1:350 ships I see are mostly very lightly weathered for scale effect only and even though I know you wont see weathering at that scale it means that two models side by side with one massively weathered with the full competition grade treatment of pastels, washes, shading battledamage etc next to something that has a simple wash and some highlight drybrushing , lends itself to the audience believeing the weathered vehicle has more work or is of better quality. human nature that. No disrespect meant of course, but alot of ship models I seen have been poorly is any weathering done at all! Carrier decks are an opportunity for much weathering - modern or old, but often that opportunity goes un tested. Civillian aircraft have the same proble - at 1:400 scale sometimes they cant be weathered either. Take a real full size battleship and stand back far enough so it looks to be 1:350 scale, and you wont even see the handrails let alone the weathering, yet as modellers we try to overdetail and in competition we demand this detail even though its actually unnatural - take a 1:35 scale face and look how detailed some make it - eyebrows, teeth coloured eyes etc etc, but ask someone to stand far enough back so they appear at that scale and their face is pretty much a blur - this challenge of scale painting is problematic for model ship builders who enter competitions.

Right now I am building a Titanic in 1:400 scale - and agonising over minute details that I know no one will appreciate, and when I enter it in competition, I doubt will get much attention, even If it is competely accurized. Last year I won best of show for a diorama, the top gong I been after for years, and it will surprise some people to see me enter something so far removed from my normal skill base.

I hope I have added something to this thread. ? Im telling like I see it.

I agree with the statement made.

Adam

RedDuster
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 09:47 PM UTC
In the UK it seems to vary from show to show, certainly at the IPMS nationals, or Scale Model World as it is called these days, Ships have done well of late, taking best in show two years on the trot a couple of years back.

Around the local shows there are more ships on the club stands, and more people taking an interest, A few shows now get enough ships in the competition to split into small & large scale classes, but the number of ships entered in the competitions, whilst it has gone up, is not reflecting the higher number of ships being exhibitied. I remember entering a comp a few years back, the entries were a 1/700th scale flower class corvette, a 1/350th USS New Jersey and a I/72nd scale U-Boat, (the corvette was mine & came 2nd) but a nightmare to judge.

From the competition organisors point of veiw, and I have been on that side of the fence, it is difficult, you have to balance the split of classes between fairness to the entrants (i.e. to so like is judged against like) and the solid economics of paying for awards. also the classes that the paying public are most interested in need to be put in the places with best and clearest access to minimise overcrowing in a particular area when the competion is opened up after judging.

I do not think there is deliberate prejudice against ship modellers or those of any other minority interest, I think it is merely the practicallity competition organisers have to live with.

Si
TracyWhite
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Washington, United States
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 01:18 PM UTC
"Best of Show" for the US Nationals have been ships the last few years.
blaster76
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 07:38 AM UTC
We have 2 shows in teh Dallas area.Everythng is separated aby category and sub categories. Ships is pretty much 600 andf blow 600 and above. Tanks have about 6 categories now and planes a bunch. Everythng is lined up on tables withairplanes and armor getting a full row ships hsare with space and usually something else. Judges are separate for each category so you are only competing with likie models.

At both shows planes are predominent follwed by armor, cars, dioramas/figures, ship and last space/misc

In years past there was a lot of competition and many more categories ( ships may have 6 instead of 2) now it is kind of disappointing
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2012 - 10:39 PM UTC
Hi folks,

I'd be very suprised if ships didn't take best of show. They are much more complex and detailed than other modelling subjects.

Don't visit shows much so can't comment on the fair shake issue.

Al
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