Dear all,
Normally I review tanks and other land-dwellers; however I received ICM's 1/350 Markgraf for review. It is a great looking model which can be assembled very fast if you do not add extras. If you do, however... it will take a time.
I have a couple of questions to ask from seasoned ship builders.
1. what do you look for in a review? Accuracy, ease of build, available AM?
2. how do you check the accuracy of the model? With tanks, etc. it is relatively straightforward... however ships were refitted, rebuilt over time (HMS Belfast actually grew fatter), and not sure where I can find accurate information on the version the given model is meant to represent. Not to mention dimensions.
3. what is the difference between the different Konig class ships? Was there any? I only found a generic PE set for these ships, and nothing for Markgraf. If there is a difference between the sister ships Konig and Markgraf I cannot find it anywhere online. (The PE will also be part of the review.)
4. how on earth do you glue the rails on?
5. how do you rig the ship? Is the instruction manual's 3-way drawing enough as a reference, or should I look for more?
Thank you!
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Help with 1/350 Markgraf, please
spongya
Associate Editor
Joined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Model Shipwrights: 28 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - 12:52 AM UTC
RussellE
#306
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,959 posts
Model Shipwrights: 2,777 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - 11:32 AM UTC
Andras I will put in my 2 cents if that helps...
1. what do you look for in a review? Accuracy, ease of build, available AM?
Generally, what I like to see is how good the tooling molding will be. Most of the time involved in building ships is cleaning up dodgy moldings, so if that can be avoided then it makes for a better more enjoyable build.
2. how do you check the accuracy of the model? With tanks, etc. it is relatively straightforward... however ships were refitted, rebuilt over time (HMS Belfast actually grew fatter), and not sure where I can find accurate information on the version the given model is meant to represent. Not to mention dimensions.
In terms of accuracy the main thing I look for is hull shape and overall length. If these are incorrectly tooled then it is a very difficult thing to rectify.
Anything above the upper deck can usually be corrected with a bit of after market gear or scratch building so it's not so much of a concern in those areas.
3. what is the difference between the different Konig class ships? Was there any? I only found a generic PE set for these ships, and nothing for Markgraf. If there is a difference between the sister ships Konig and Markgraf I cannot find it anywhere online. (The PE will also be part of the review.)
I can't answer this one as I have very little reference material. However, what I've come to realise is, if I can't find information on a particular class of vessel or a particular ship, chances are, no-one else can either, so who's to say it's wrong?
BTW, generic PE is usually fine...
4. how on earth do you glue the rails on?
Medium super glue is my starting point, backed up by diluted white wood glue to fill gaps (Some folks use Gator Grip). There's usually a fair amount of cursing and swearing involved too
5. how do you rig the ship? Is the instruction manual's 3-way drawing enough as a reference, or should I look for more?
Rigging is another one of those items that is hard to find good references for. I always go for a "representative" look, as only on really close inspection can a trained observer tell if there are any lines missing. EG when you look at power lines, do you count every line and where they are going? Surely not. And the same applies to ships rig. You know it's there, you can see it, but heck, who has time to check every run?
I use Ezy line by Red Roo models. I've found it to be the easiest and least stressful means of rigging ships. To apply it drill a small hole #75 or less, dab a little accelerator in the hole, dip the ezy line in CA medium and insert into hole. Using this method allows you to tension the line appropriately. When it comes to applying to masts you obviously won't need to drill a hole
Be cautious though as plastic masts won't hold the tension hence I recommend brass rod to replace the mast and yard arms.
Hopefully this can be of some help in your review and build? Andras
1. what do you look for in a review? Accuracy, ease of build, available AM?
Generally, what I like to see is how good the tooling molding will be. Most of the time involved in building ships is cleaning up dodgy moldings, so if that can be avoided then it makes for a better more enjoyable build.
2. how do you check the accuracy of the model? With tanks, etc. it is relatively straightforward... however ships were refitted, rebuilt over time (HMS Belfast actually grew fatter), and not sure where I can find accurate information on the version the given model is meant to represent. Not to mention dimensions.
In terms of accuracy the main thing I look for is hull shape and overall length. If these are incorrectly tooled then it is a very difficult thing to rectify.
Anything above the upper deck can usually be corrected with a bit of after market gear or scratch building so it's not so much of a concern in those areas.
3. what is the difference between the different Konig class ships? Was there any? I only found a generic PE set for these ships, and nothing for Markgraf. If there is a difference between the sister ships Konig and Markgraf I cannot find it anywhere online. (The PE will also be part of the review.)
I can't answer this one as I have very little reference material. However, what I've come to realise is, if I can't find information on a particular class of vessel or a particular ship, chances are, no-one else can either, so who's to say it's wrong?
BTW, generic PE is usually fine...
4. how on earth do you glue the rails on?
Medium super glue is my starting point, backed up by diluted white wood glue to fill gaps (Some folks use Gator Grip). There's usually a fair amount of cursing and swearing involved too
5. how do you rig the ship? Is the instruction manual's 3-way drawing enough as a reference, or should I look for more?
Rigging is another one of those items that is hard to find good references for. I always go for a "representative" look, as only on really close inspection can a trained observer tell if there are any lines missing. EG when you look at power lines, do you count every line and where they are going? Surely not. And the same applies to ships rig. You know it's there, you can see it, but heck, who has time to check every run?
I use Ezy line by Red Roo models. I've found it to be the easiest and least stressful means of rigging ships. To apply it drill a small hole #75 or less, dab a little accelerator in the hole, dip the ezy line in CA medium and insert into hole. Using this method allows you to tension the line appropriately. When it comes to applying to masts you obviously won't need to drill a hole
Be cautious though as plastic masts won't hold the tension hence I recommend brass rod to replace the mast and yard arms.
Hopefully this can be of some help in your review and build? Andras
Littorio
Joined: September 15, 2004
KitMaker: 4,728 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,080 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - 07:38 PM UTC
I’d second all that Russell has said plus add in a couple of things of my own.
2) Accuracy, look for books on the class from good well known authors known within the model ship world for accuracy. Some newer books can be full of fancy colour drawings but be wrong in detail. Does the hull plating (if present) look over done and match drawings/photos. Internet can be good for reviews and photos but can also lead you down the wrong path so use with some caution.
3) Konig at least had a mast change pre or post Jutland, can’t remember which off the top of my head, the mast is available from WEM (White Ensign Models) who also do a Konig class pe set. I’m not sure what the differences were between the ships of the class other than the mast on Konig.
4) Rails, CA for the first post then Gator Grip for the rest, being a PVA it also has a slight give when dry so parts don’t fly of if they get a slight knock which they may do if glued with CA. Gator Grip also has a longer working time so you can get that tiny part where you want it before the glue sets.
2) Accuracy, look for books on the class from good well known authors known within the model ship world for accuracy. Some newer books can be full of fancy colour drawings but be wrong in detail. Does the hull plating (if present) look over done and match drawings/photos. Internet can be good for reviews and photos but can also lead you down the wrong path so use with some caution.
3) Konig at least had a mast change pre or post Jutland, can’t remember which off the top of my head, the mast is available from WEM (White Ensign Models) who also do a Konig class pe set. I’m not sure what the differences were between the ships of the class other than the mast on Konig.
4) Rails, CA for the first post then Gator Grip for the rest, being a PVA it also has a slight give when dry so parts don’t fly of if they get a slight knock which they may do if glued with CA. Gator Grip also has a longer working time so you can get that tiny part where you want it before the glue sets.
RussellE
#306
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,959 posts
Model Shipwrights: 2,777 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - 08:06 PM UTC
Couldn't agree more Luciano
You've raised a really good point about the hull plating. It must be one of the most off putting things about a model kit if over done
You've raised a really good point about the hull plating. It must be one of the most off putting things about a model kit if over done
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
Model Shipwrights: 249 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - 10:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
3. what is the difference between the different Konig class ships? Was there any? I only found a generic PE set for these ships, and nothing for Markgraf. If there is a difference between the sister ships Konig and Markgraf I cannot find it anywhere online.
Thank you!
I have read that all of the plastic kits are the same despite coming in different boxings.
d6mst0
#453
Joined: August 28, 2016
KitMaker: 1,925 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,298 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - 11:51 PM UTC
I found using Google images a great tool for pulling up photos on the subject matter.
Mark
Mark
spongya
Associate EditorJoined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Model Shipwrights: 28 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2019 - 06:34 PM UTC
Dear Russel,
Thank you for the response. I will focus on your suggestions; hope the review will be useful. (It actually seems to be simpler to do lesser known subjects, reviewing a Tiger I would be a nightmare as a lot of people would jump in saying that "oh, that weld line is not represented correctly in the model as clearly seen in these historical sources", so you are on to something
)
Railings: So you attach the first peg with PE just onto the plastic. No holes drilled? And once it is on, just use actual wood glue to work with the other pegs one by one? (Gator grip is not available in Hungary, so I probably won't be ordering it. Should have bought some when I was still in the UK.)
I was just asking if you ordered EZ line all the way from Australia when I realized you probably do A good friend of mine keeps inviting me over, but I'm reluctant of braving the fauna there... (Jokes aside I will take my family there for a visit as soon as my daughther is old enough. If I had no family ties here I would probably go there to settle.) I will need to find an alternative, but the hole-drilling idea is great, thank you.
I will try to find a place selling brass rods; I'm sure there are shops that are places here, too. (Hobby stores are not exactly focusing on scale models here, unfortunately.)
Dear Luciano,
Thank you for the response. I should have bought books when I still was in the UK; they are not very available in Hungary (being a landlocked country ship modelling was never a big thing here).
By hull plating you mean the armor plates overlapping each other on the side of the hull?
Thanks for the pointers about the mast change; it is something I can use as a starting point.
Do you use any anchoring points for the rail posts, or just attach them to the flat plastic? Or use the side of the ship as an attachment point?
Dear Mark,
Thank you for the suggestion. I have used google before for finding references; unfortunately what actually prompted my post is that Markgraf is very unrepresented in the google image library. Grainy black and white photos of a tiny ship in low resolution are not exactly the best way to figure out where razor thin lines are going on a ship, or find other small details.
Thank you for the response. I will focus on your suggestions; hope the review will be useful. (It actually seems to be simpler to do lesser known subjects, reviewing a Tiger I would be a nightmare as a lot of people would jump in saying that "oh, that weld line is not represented correctly in the model as clearly seen in these historical sources", so you are on to something
)Railings: So you attach the first peg with PE just onto the plastic. No holes drilled? And once it is on, just use actual wood glue to work with the other pegs one by one? (Gator grip is not available in Hungary, so I probably won't be ordering it. Should have bought some when I was still in the UK.)
I was just asking if you ordered EZ line all the way from Australia when I realized you probably do
A good friend of mine keeps inviting me over, but I'm reluctant of braving the fauna there... (Jokes aside I will take my family there for a visit as soon as my daughther is old enough. If I had no family ties here I would probably go there to settle.) I will need to find an alternative, but the hole-drilling idea is great, thank you.I will try to find a place selling brass rods; I'm sure there are shops that are places here, too. (Hobby stores are not exactly focusing on scale models here, unfortunately.)
Dear Luciano,
Thank you for the response. I should have bought books when I still was in the UK; they are not very available in Hungary (being a landlocked country ship modelling was never a big thing here).
By hull plating you mean the armor plates overlapping each other on the side of the hull?
Thanks for the pointers about the mast change; it is something I can use as a starting point.
Do you use any anchoring points for the rail posts, or just attach them to the flat plastic? Or use the side of the ship as an attachment point?
Dear Mark,
Thank you for the suggestion. I have used google before for finding references; unfortunately what actually prompted my post is that Markgraf is very unrepresented in the google image library. Grainy black and white photos of a tiny ship in low resolution are not exactly the best way to figure out where razor thin lines are going on a ship, or find other small details.
RussellE
#306
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,959 posts
Model Shipwrights: 2,777 posts
Posted: Friday, May 24, 2019 - 10:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Dear Russel,
Thank you for the response. I will focus on your suggestions; hope the review will be useful. (It actually seems to be simpler to do lesser known subjects, reviewing a Tiger I would be a nightmare as a lot of people would jump in saying that "oh, that weld line is not represented correctly in the model as clearly seen in these historical sources", so you are on to something
Hi Andras, happy to be of help!
You are correct in that more well known subjects are harder to review... Having said that scale plays an important part in ships as well. As was touched on earlier things like hull plating can be well over done. But imagine a weld line. A 25mm weld at 1/350 scale would be 0.07mm and even less at 1/700.
Quoted Text
Railings: So you attach the first peg with PE just onto the plastic. No holes drilled? And once it is on, just use actual wood glue to work with the other pegs one by one? (Gator grip is not available in Hungary, so I probably won't be ordering it. Should have bought some when I was still in the UK.)
No holes, Andras. Use superglue medium to tack the railings in position before running a small thin bead of diluted wood glue. Personally that's all I use and it works fine, you won't need to specially source Gator Grip. There's lots of builds here on MSW where you can see how we attach railing.
Quoted Text
I was just asking if you ordered EZ line all the way from Australia when I realized you probably do
Hehe, yes, it's the little things that will get you here, snakes, spiders etc.
I'm pretty sure Red Roo Models models ship internationally if you need Ezy line and can't get it locally
Quoted Text
I will try to find a place selling brass rods; I'm sure there are shops that are places here, too. (Hobby stores are not exactly focusing on scale models here, unfortunately.)
A great place to source brass products for ships is Master Model as they sell generic tapered masts and yardarms you can adapt to your build. They should have a local retailer being a Polish company.
Quoted Text
Dear Luciano,
Thank you for the response. I should have bought books when I still was in the UK; they are not very available in Hungary (being a landlocked country ship modelling was never a big thing here).
By hull plating you mean the armor plates overlapping each other on the side of the hull?
Absolutely he does: When over done by a model company it can be as difficult to correct as incorrect hull shape or length. It's put me off plenty of kits.
Quoted Text
Thanks for the pointers about the mast change; it is something I can use as a starting point.
Do you use any anchoring points for the rail posts, or just attach them to the flat plastic? Or use the side of the ship as an attachment point?
I wouldn't use any anchoring points, just the outer edge of the deck.
Quoted Text
Dear Mark,
Thank you for the suggestion. I have used google before for finding references; unfortunately what actually prompted my post is that Markgraf is very unrepresented in the google image library. Grainy black and white photos of a tiny ship in low resolution are not exactly the best way to figure out where razor thin lines are going on a ship, or find other small details.
Wikipedia has some good pictures also
spongya
Associate EditorJoined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Model Shipwrights: 28 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2019 - 10:53 PM UTC
Thank you again. I have begun collecting information, I have two PE sets (will review them in due course), and bought a book on ship modelling.
The ICM model looks clean, but it has surprisingly few number of parts. It's like a base you can expand to as huge build as you desire... (and your wallet allows.)
I feel like I'm sinking in quicksand -and I have not started building yet. There's already the Yamato (or Bismark), the DML Scharnhorst, the King George III, maybe the Hood because of its history, and the Aurora I want to build.
Along with my already long must-build list of armor and aircraft.
If I could live as long as I have models to build that interest me I would probably be here when the sun swallows our planet in 2 billion years.
The ICM model looks clean, but it has surprisingly few number of parts. It's like a base you can expand to as huge build as you desire... (and your wallet allows.)
I feel like I'm sinking in quicksand -and I have not started building yet. There's already the Yamato (or Bismark), the DML Scharnhorst, the King George III, maybe the Hood because of its history, and the Aurora I want to build.
Along with my already long must-build list of armor and aircraft.
If I could live as long as I have models to build that interest me I would probably be here when the sun swallows our planet in 2 billion years.
RussellE
#306
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,959 posts
Model Shipwrights: 2,777 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2019 - 11:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you again. I have begun collecting information, I have two PE sets (will review them in due course), and bought a book on ship modelling.
The ICM model looks clean, but it has surprisingly few number of parts. It's like a base you can expand to as huge build as you desire... (and your wallet allows.)
I feel like I'm sinking in quicksand -and I have not started building yet. There's already the Yamato (or Bismark), the DML Scharnhorst, the King George III, maybe the Hood because of its history, and the Aurora I want to build.
Along with my already long must-build list of armor and aircraft.
If I could live as long as I have models to build that interest me I would probably be here when the sun swallows our planet in 2 billion years.
Hi Andras
ah, the salty side of the hobby is truly an addictive one...
and all these kits to build: luxury problems
d6mst0
#453
Joined: August 28, 2016
KitMaker: 1,925 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,298 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2019 - 11:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
If I could live as long as I have models to build that interest me I would probably be here when the sun swallows our planet in 2 billion years.
Hey that's my retirement plan!
Mark
SpurnWater71
#504
Joined: July 06, 2019
KitMaker: 76 posts
Model Shipwrights: 73 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 11:21 AM UTC
I have all four of the 1/350 ICM Konig class battleships and can tell you that while they are very close, the four kits are not identical.
On Markgraf & Kronprinz some of the large sprues, J and K in particular, have ship-specific parts. The instructions identify the ones not used by the subject model by shading them in a red-orange color. However, Koenig & Grosser Kurfurst's sprue layout diagrams show no shaded parts and have no small sprue with alternate foremast parts.
Markgraf & Kronprinz each have 1 (different) small sprue for the foremast: SMS Markgraf has one "L" sprue (but no "M" sprue) and SMS Kronprinz has one small "M" sprue (but no "L" sprue). Markgraft's sprue "L" contains just foremast parts while Kronprinz's sprue "M" contains parts for foremast & fore funnel. There are other cases where different parts may be used - ICM indicates these choices with a red "?" in the instructions. For example, all four kits give you a choice of using part J1 or part J41 for the fore funnel base; I assume these options are pre- and post- refit options.
The single-piece hulls are identical for all four kits - same part number stamped on bottom. The decks appear to be the same, but I have not unbagged them yet.
Interestingly, ICM designed the range finders so that they can pivot. This allows you to align rangefinders with the direction the turrets are pointing - a nice touch.
We must give some credit to ICM's box cover artist - the artwork captures the foremast variants pretty well.
Given the other thread on rigging, would be remiss if I didn't give ICM credit for good diagrams showing crane, boat davit, and accommodation ladder rigging.
Kip
On Markgraf & Kronprinz some of the large sprues, J and K in particular, have ship-specific parts. The instructions identify the ones not used by the subject model by shading them in a red-orange color. However, Koenig & Grosser Kurfurst's sprue layout diagrams show no shaded parts and have no small sprue with alternate foremast parts.
Markgraf & Kronprinz each have 1 (different) small sprue for the foremast: SMS Markgraf has one "L" sprue (but no "M" sprue) and SMS Kronprinz has one small "M" sprue (but no "L" sprue). Markgraft's sprue "L" contains just foremast parts while Kronprinz's sprue "M" contains parts for foremast & fore funnel. There are other cases where different parts may be used - ICM indicates these choices with a red "?" in the instructions. For example, all four kits give you a choice of using part J1 or part J41 for the fore funnel base; I assume these options are pre- and post- refit options.
The single-piece hulls are identical for all four kits - same part number stamped on bottom. The decks appear to be the same, but I have not unbagged them yet.
Interestingly, ICM designed the range finders so that they can pivot. This allows you to align rangefinders with the direction the turrets are pointing - a nice touch.
We must give some credit to ICM's box cover artist - the artwork captures the foremast variants pretty well.
Given the other thread on rigging, would be remiss if I didn't give ICM credit for good diagrams showing crane, boat davit, and accommodation ladder rigging.
Kip
spongya
Associate EditorJoined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Model Shipwrights: 28 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2019 - 09:06 PM UTC
Thank you for the imput! (And you are from Florida, no less Used to live there for almost a decade; the weather and the ocean is dearly missed.)
Used to live there for almost a decade; the weather and the ocean is dearly missed.)SpurnWater71
#504
Joined: July 06, 2019
KitMaker: 76 posts
Model Shipwrights: 73 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 12:18 PM UTC
Very welcome on the input, thanks yo you for initiating the very interesting threat.
Florida, yes, Space Coast, soon to start my seventeenth year. Not now the paradise you remember - temperatures are very brutal, can't go in the freshwater because of the flesh-eating bacteria nor the saltwater because of the blue green algae. Then there is the iguana, Burmese pythons and other invasive species.
All are good incentive for staying indoors and modeling ships.
Kip
Florida, yes, Space Coast, soon to start my seventeenth year. Not now the paradise you remember - temperatures are very brutal, can't go in the freshwater because of the flesh-eating bacteria nor the saltwater because of the blue green algae. Then there is the iguana, Burmese pythons and other invasive species.
All are good incentive for staying indoors and modeling ships.
Kip
spongya
Associate EditorJoined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Model Shipwrights: 28 posts
Posted: Monday, July 22, 2019 - 01:22 AM UTC
Damn. Algal blooms and bacteria have became this much of an issue? I mean the brutal temperature is one thing; it will only get worse, but this is not a good news. (I was down in Boca while attending to FAU, then in Miami... the invasive species were known problem then, too, but the bacteria and algal issues were not in the public conscientiousness.)
SpurnWater71
#504
Joined: July 06, 2019
KitMaker: 76 posts
Model Shipwrights: 73 posts
Posted: Monday, July 22, 2019 - 12:46 PM UTC
Boca was very nice then.
Some interesting references:
1. Impact of algae on boats, engine failure, paint maintenance: http://https://https://www.abc-7.com/story/38792065/algae-likely-to-cause-damage-to-boats
2. Impact on sport fishing:
http://https://www.outdoorlife.com/floridas-water-crisis-has-sport-fishing-on-brink-collapse/
3. Gov. Scoot declares state of emergency: [url]http://https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/fl-reg-scott-algae-emergency-20180709-story.htmlurl]
It is sad. No good ship or boat modeling diorama comes from this.
Kip
Some interesting references:
1. Impact of algae on boats, engine failure, paint maintenance: http://https://https://www.abc-7.com/story/38792065/algae-likely-to-cause-damage-to-boats
2. Impact on sport fishing:
http://https://www.outdoorlife.com/floridas-water-crisis-has-sport-fishing-on-brink-collapse/
3. Gov. Scoot declares state of emergency: [url]http://https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/fl-reg-scott-algae-emergency-20180709-story.htmlurl]
It is sad. No good ship or boat modeling diorama comes from this.
Kip
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