Okay Navy guys, I have a question...
If I want to build the USS Cincinnati, which is a Los Angeles class submarine, can I use a kit of the USS Los Angeles as the basis for the conversion?
Aren't the class names of ships (and subs) named after the first built in their class? (not sure I asked that question the right way)
If I can do so, would anyone have any idea what modifications would have to be made, or would I have to figure that out using photos and other reference materials? Any idea where I could find some of that info?
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USS Los Angeles Conversion
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
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Posted: Friday, November 12, 2004 - 03:21 PM UTC
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
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Posted: Friday, November 12, 2004 - 04:05 PM UTC
Try this link Darryl. http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/const/anatomy/attacks/
I think they were all basicly the same. But be warned, there was 62 subs in that class! The Los Angeles was the class leader. first of the class built.
Hope this helps buddy!
Garry
I think they were all basicly the same. But be warned, there was 62 subs in that class! The Los Angeles was the class leader. first of the class built.
Hope this helps buddy!
Garry
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 12, 2004 - 05:26 PM UTC
Garry,
That helps answer my question about using the USS Los Angeles. I just need to find photo's of both to make some comparisons...or some color drawings would be even better. You think they would have been painted in similar colors?
And why is the bottom of the hull red on Subs and other ships as opposed to another color?
That helps answer my question about using the USS Los Angeles. I just need to find photo's of both to make some comparisons...or some color drawings would be even better. You think they would have been painted in similar colors?
And why is the bottom of the hull red on Subs and other ships as opposed to another color?
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 12, 2004 - 06:16 PM UTC
And another link. http://www.usmilitaryart.com/la_class_ssn.htm
This one here has drawings of all the class.
Garry
This one here has drawings of all the class.
Garry
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 12, 2004 - 06:24 PM UTC
And here is a link to a review of the Bluewater navies 1/350 LA class.
http://www.steelnavy.com/BWNssn700.htm
Enjoy,
Garry
http://www.steelnavy.com/BWNssn700.htm
Enjoy,
Garry
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 03:43 AM UTC
Thank you Sir!
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 04:05 AM UTC
Hi Darryl and Garry!!
It's good to see that this group is full of knowledge and happy to part it with the others
Just a add on to the color scheme - the red should be almost brick - on my references it seems so...
The blacks on the upper part on the hull can be two tones - the anti-skid and the other!!
Befor you start, take a while and try to find some pics where the upper hull and sail are close.. you can notice the diffrences
Best regards to all,
Skipper
It's good to see that this group is full of knowledge and happy to part it with the others
Just a add on to the color scheme - the red should be almost brick - on my references it seems so...
The blacks on the upper part on the hull can be two tones - the anti-skid and the other!!
Befor you start, take a while and try to find some pics where the upper hull and sail are close.. you can notice the diffrences
Best regards to all,
Skipper
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 12:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Darryl and Garry!!
It's good to see that this group is full of knowledge and happy to part it with the others
Just a add on to the color scheme - the red should be almost brick - on my references it seems so...
The blacks on the upper part on the hull can be two tones - the anti-skid and the other!!
Befor you start, take a while and try to find some pics where the upper hull and sail are close.. you can notice the diffrences
Best regards to all,
Skipper
Skipper,
I planned on doing just that before I even think about starting on my sub(s), getting lots of reference materials.
Isn't the red known as "Hull Red" by some manufacturers? I need to find this in a spray can, as I'm not brave enough to try my air brush....because I haven't practiced with it.
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 01:59 PM UTC
Hi Darryl !
I beleave the paint the US Navy uses is called Antifouling red. I have tried Tamiya's hull red, but I dont like it. One's best bet is to use WEMS color coat paints, they have a hull red that comes pretty close.
What I do is use Model masters enamel insignia red, and mix in a little flat black to darken it a bit. I use this on all of my ships.
Cheers,
Garry
I beleave the paint the US Navy uses is called Antifouling red. I have tried Tamiya's hull red, but I dont like it. One's best bet is to use WEMS color coat paints, they have a hull red that comes pretty close.
What I do is use Model masters enamel insignia red, and mix in a little flat black to darken it a bit. I use this on all of my ships.
Cheers,
Garry
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 08:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I need to find this in a spray can, as I'm not brave enough to try my air brush....because I haven't practiced with it.
Well Darryl, this is a nice opportunity to use it
It's an easy masking area and it's only one color!
On Fine Scale Modeling, December Number (volume 22, Issue 10) you'll get an article on troubleshooting some problems that may occur...
This is a great change to loose your fears - just spend a little paint on an exspendable plastic part or surface first to get your "hand"!
Remember "have fun"
Skipper
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 06:25 AM UTC
Thanks Garry and Skipper...
Garry - I'm still not familiar with all the up-to-date modeling terms and acronyms, so you'll have to help me out...WEMS?
Skipper-I have that issue of FSM and I'm sure it will help when I get the nerve to break out the airbrush...I have an old Badger double action which I got out one time about fourteen years ago...haven't tried it since, but you're right, I really do need to get practicing...I think I'd like to get a newer airbrush though...I had heard about one that would allow me to change tips(?) based on the size of spray pattern I want, without having to stop while painting. I think I'll look into that and go to town...I wanna say it was an Aztec(?) but not totally sure.
19 enlisted...wonder who will make it 20...keep the enlistments coming fellow modelers....
Garry - I'm still not familiar with all the up-to-date modeling terms and acronyms, so you'll have to help me out...WEMS?
Skipper-I have that issue of FSM and I'm sure it will help when I get the nerve to break out the airbrush...I have an old Badger double action which I got out one time about fourteen years ago...haven't tried it since, but you're right, I really do need to get practicing...I think I'd like to get a newer airbrush though...I had heard about one that would allow me to change tips(?) based on the size of spray pattern I want, without having to stop while painting. I think I'll look into that and go to town...I wanna say it was an Aztec(?) but not totally sure.
19 enlisted...wonder who will make it 20...keep the enlistments coming fellow modelers....
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 07:12 AM UTC
Hi Darryl,
WEMS stands for White Ensign Model's , John Snyder is the owner, and he post here on this site, under the name of dign25. They have a great line of paints and PE sets. Im thinking that there paints and pe can also be bought at Squadron mail order, or at WEMS in the UK. There addy is. http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/
Cheers,
Garry
WEMS stands for White Ensign Model's , John Snyder is the owner, and he post here on this site, under the name of dign25. They have a great line of paints and PE sets. Im thinking that there paints and pe can also be bought at Squadron mail order, or at WEMS in the UK. There addy is. http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/
Cheers,
Garry
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 08:32 AM UTC
Hi,
I have to agree with Garrybeebe on WEM naval paints!!
I use them now and then and they are great and accurate in shade!
On the airbrush issue - I've bought an Aztek about three or four years ago and it's very easy to use it, and most important, to clean it!
I consider it is a great investment - but your Badger is also a great airbrush - once you're confy with it, the same result will be accomplished!
On both, you will need to practice
Skipper
I have to agree with Garrybeebe on WEM naval paints!!
I use them now and then and they are great and accurate in shade!
On the airbrush issue - I've bought an Aztek about three or four years ago and it's very easy to use it, and most important, to clean it!
I consider it is a great investment - but your Badger is also a great airbrush - once you're confy with it, the same result will be accomplished!
On both, you will need to practice
Skipper
SSN693
Joined: November 15, 2004
KitMaker: 8 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 03:35 PM UTC
USS Cincinnati (SSN-693) was a first flight 688 class submarine. The Yankee Modelworks 688 or DML USS Dallas kits would work for this ship. The Cincinnati was originally launched without any towed array and it was added to the boat during a yard period in the fall of 1981. The rubber coating was not applied to the hull until around 1990.
The Dallas kit requires some work to be accurate for an "after 1981 version" of the boat. The biggest discrepency is the stern planes. 688's do not have vertical stabilizers on the end of the stern planes, and the stern planes are split, meaning there is a fixed horizontal stabilizer and movable control surfaces. The port stern plane would have a towed array exit tube on the end. Being a first flight boat, the Cincinnati did not have vertical launch tubes or bow planes.
As far as painting, its pretty simple. The entire sonar dome is black, and the hull and sail is black above the midpoint and red below. You could use flat and semigloss paints to achieve the different textures. When freshly painted, the black hull had a reddish purple cast below the waterline due to the anti-fouling in the paint. At rest, 688's squat aft, and actually draw 4-5 feet more aft than forward. The red paint below was pretty bright when new, I used Model Master insignia red and it looks pretty much dead on. The Fiberglass sonar dome would be a flatter sheen and faded compared to the hull, even when freshly painted. The nonskid walkway is another place I would use flat paint. Other than for ceremonies, the only markings are the draft marks.
I can pretty much speak with authority on this boat as I was a cewmember for 6 years. Attached is a link to the boat's website.
[url=http://home.flash.net/~stromain/Cincinnati/ssn-693.html]
The Dallas kit requires some work to be accurate for an "after 1981 version" of the boat. The biggest discrepency is the stern planes. 688's do not have vertical stabilizers on the end of the stern planes, and the stern planes are split, meaning there is a fixed horizontal stabilizer and movable control surfaces. The port stern plane would have a towed array exit tube on the end. Being a first flight boat, the Cincinnati did not have vertical launch tubes or bow planes.
As far as painting, its pretty simple. The entire sonar dome is black, and the hull and sail is black above the midpoint and red below. You could use flat and semigloss paints to achieve the different textures. When freshly painted, the black hull had a reddish purple cast below the waterline due to the anti-fouling in the paint. At rest, 688's squat aft, and actually draw 4-5 feet more aft than forward. The red paint below was pretty bright when new, I used Model Master insignia red and it looks pretty much dead on. The Fiberglass sonar dome would be a flatter sheen and faded compared to the hull, even when freshly painted. The nonskid walkway is another place I would use flat paint. Other than for ceremonies, the only markings are the draft marks.
I can pretty much speak with authority on this boat as I was a cewmember for 6 years. Attached is a link to the boat's website.
[url=http://home.flash.net/~stromain/Cincinnati/ssn-693.html]
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 05:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
USS Cincinnati (SSN-693) was a first flight 688 class submarine. The Yankee Modelworks 688 or DML USS Dallas kits would work for this ship. The Cincinnati was originally launched without any towed array and it was added to the boat during a yard period in the fall of 1981. The rubber coating was not applied to the hull until around 1990.
The Dallas kit requires some work to be accurate for an "after 1981 version" of the boat. The biggest discrepency is the stern planes. 688's do not have vertical stabilizers on the end of the stern planes, and the stern planes are split, meaning there is a fixed horizontal stabilizer and movable control surfaces. The port stern plane would have a towed array exit tube on the end. Being a first flight boat, the Cincinnati did not have vertical launch tubes or bow planes.
As far as painting, its pretty simple. The entire sonar dome is black, and the hull and sail is black above the midpoint and red below. You could use flat and semigloss paints to achieve the different textures. When freshly painted, the black hull had a reddish purple cast below the waterline due to the anti-fouling in the paint. At rest, 688's squat aft, and actually draw 4-5 feet more aft than forward. The red paint below was pretty bright when new, I used Model Master insignia red and it looks pretty much dead on. The Fiberglass sonar dome would be a flatter sheen and faded compared to the hull, even when freshly painted. The nonskid walkway is another place I would use flat paint. Other than for ceremonies, the only markings are the draft marks.
I can pretty much speak with authority on this boat as I was a cewmember for 6 years. Attached is a link to the boat's website.
[url=http://home.flash.net/~stromain/Cincinnati/ssn-693.html]
Welcome aboard SSN693 !
And welcome to Armorama! You have came to a great site here, and by the sound of it you are a good modeler to have on our warship forum! Specialy with your Submarine expertin. I mainly model sufice ships of the WW-2 era, But this Submarine campaign we are getting going here has me realy interested in building subs.
You might think about getting in on this campaign, its going to be fun, and a learning experiance for a lot of us.But once again, welcome aboard! Glad to have you with us!
Cheers,
Garry
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2004 - 12:09 AM UTC
Welcome SSN693!!
The more the merrier and I can say that you are most welcome with your in-situ experience!
Although I am a big sub fan, my builds are mostly American Civil War and WWII subs, and in these particularly Midget Subs!!
Thank you for the enlightment - please feel free to contribute and help our fellow Submariners!
Skipper
The more the merrier and I can say that you are most welcome with your in-situ experience!
Although I am a big sub fan, my builds are mostly American Civil War and WWII subs, and in these particularly Midget Subs!!
Thank you for the enlightment - please feel free to contribute and help our fellow Submariners!
Skipper
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 15, 2004 - 09:53 AM UTC
SSN693,
Talk about a Godsend! That's exactly the kind of thing we're looking for in this campaign. To have the "experts" share thier knowledge and firsthand experiences. Thanks so much!
What more could anyone ask for than to have someone who actually served on the ship (well Sub) I want to build.
I'm sure I will be picking your brain so-to-speak as I really want to build the USS Cincinnati, since I live here. (There was actually some talk of putting it on display here, but I don't know what has become of that)
Now, I just need to find the DML kit of the Dallas...
Talk about a Godsend! That's exactly the kind of thing we're looking for in this campaign. To have the "experts" share thier knowledge and firsthand experiences. Thanks so much!
What more could anyone ask for than to have someone who actually served on the ship (well Sub) I want to build.
I'm sure I will be picking your brain so-to-speak as I really want to build the USS Cincinnati, since I live here. (There was actually some talk of putting it on display here, but I don't know what has become of that)
Now, I just need to find the DML kit of the Dallas...
SSN693
Joined: November 15, 2004
KitMaker: 8 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2004 - 03:14 PM UTC
Thanks for the hearty welcome. I recently returned to ship modeling after years of making car models. The renaissance in ship modeling has taken me by storm. I have become heavily hooked on 1/350 scale kits, as well as the 1/72 U-boat, which is an awesome kit. Right now, I am trying to take a 50% off Minihobby Bismark and make something out of it.
The Cincinnati was my first boat, and was very unique in that the crew was vrey close knit. The first CO really did his best to keep the traditional submarine spirit alive. Many guys did two or more tours aboard, including one guy who advanced from 3rd class to Senior Chief without ever transferring. Many of us stilll keep in touch, and the URL I posted is a website some of the guys put together.
In my previous post, I said you could use the Dallas kit. The Hampton kit will work as well. Although I have not put my hands on it, I understand some of the errors were corrected in the later release. Rumour is J & D Productions is working on a 1/192 688. I am holding out for that one myself.
The Save the Cincinnati effort failed due to security reasons. The Navy was not willing to give up a ship that is nearly identical to those still in service. They substituted the Narwhal instead.
Again, thanks for the warm reception.
The Cincinnati was my first boat, and was very unique in that the crew was vrey close knit. The first CO really did his best to keep the traditional submarine spirit alive. Many guys did two or more tours aboard, including one guy who advanced from 3rd class to Senior Chief without ever transferring. Many of us stilll keep in touch, and the URL I posted is a website some of the guys put together.
In my previous post, I said you could use the Dallas kit. The Hampton kit will work as well. Although I have not put my hands on it, I understand some of the errors were corrected in the later release. Rumour is J & D Productions is working on a 1/192 688. I am holding out for that one myself.
The Save the Cincinnati effort failed due to security reasons. The Navy was not willing to give up a ship that is nearly identical to those still in service. They substituted the Narwhal instead.
Again, thanks for the warm reception.
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 12:31 AM UTC
SSN693,
Would you say the Hampton kit is better than the Dallas for the Cincinnati conversion?
It's too bad they had to scrap the idea of getting the Cincinnati here, but I can certainly understand their reasoning...
Would you say the Hampton kit is better than the Dallas for the Cincinnati conversion?
It's too bad they had to scrap the idea of getting the Cincinnati here, but I can certainly understand their reasoning...
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
KitMaker: 1,610 posts
Model Shipwrights: 566 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 05:35 AM UTC
Perfect timing on the campaign! I've had the DML Hampton kit in the basement for several years meaning to do it as a present for my son, who spent two years aboard the Boise, SSN 764 in the Atlantic, and two more years aboard the Columbus, SSN 762 in the Pacific. He's indicated that the kit is reasonably good as a starter, but as SSN693 has indicated there are some things especially aft, that need to be corrected.
I don't know about the first flight boats, but two additional things that the improved 688's have (which are NOT in the kit) are a shrouded propeller and an additional set of downward angled planes forward of the stern planes, for decoys. Additionally, it appears that the provision in the stern plane for the towed array was added to the starboard side as well, perhaps in later boats.
Other details around the bridge are also not quite right, but would really only matter if you depicted the boat underway on the surface.
I'm glad to have a good reason to finally do this kit, and may wind up getting a second kit and doing both boats.
Tom Hathaway
I don't know about the first flight boats, but two additional things that the improved 688's have (which are NOT in the kit) are a shrouded propeller and an additional set of downward angled planes forward of the stern planes, for decoys. Additionally, it appears that the provision in the stern plane for the towed array was added to the starboard side as well, perhaps in later boats.
Other details around the bridge are also not quite right, but would really only matter if you depicted the boat underway on the surface.
I'm glad to have a good reason to finally do this kit, and may wind up getting a second kit and doing both boats.
Tom Hathaway
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 07:44 AM UTC
Welcome Tom! We're glad to have you...
That's 22 guys....keep the enlistments coming....
That's 22 guys....keep the enlistments coming....
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 02:46 AM UTC
Hi All!!
Back again after a few stressfull days!
Darryl just another input on the USS Cincinnati and the Hampton model:
I've been checking my archives and I can say that the Hampton it is a rework of their old USS Dallas kit, and they give you a correct stern to replace the incorrect one on the hull.
You cut off the old stern with the incorrect vertical plates on the stern plane, and replace it with one that lacks these plates, has the towed array dispenser, and even correctly scribed stern plane hinges. Add to that a new propeller that is larger, closer to the real thing in shape, and turns in the right direction, unlike the old kit prop - the Hunt for the Red Oktober, mislead some manufacturers.
The bow section and VLS tube doors have the wrong pattern, (3+3 instead of 4+2 on each side of the centerline), the doors are too small in width.
But this can be reshaped (or scribed) with a little work...
Hope I could help
Skipper
Back again after a few stressfull days!
Darryl just another input on the USS Cincinnati and the Hampton model:
I've been checking my archives and I can say that the Hampton it is a rework of their old USS Dallas kit, and they give you a correct stern to replace the incorrect one on the hull.
You cut off the old stern with the incorrect vertical plates on the stern plane, and replace it with one that lacks these plates, has the towed array dispenser, and even correctly scribed stern plane hinges. Add to that a new propeller that is larger, closer to the real thing in shape, and turns in the right direction, unlike the old kit prop - the Hunt for the Red Oktober, mislead some manufacturers
.The bow section and VLS tube doors have the wrong pattern, (3+3 instead of 4+2 on each side of the centerline), the doors are too small in width.
But this can be reshaped (or scribed) with a little work...
Hope I could help
Skipper
11Charlie
#099
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 05:44 PM UTC
Skipper,
Thanks...Greatmodels and Squadron both have the Hampton I believe. I need to get some reference photos so I can get a better idea of some of the things you, Garry and SSN693 are referring to. Some of those parts are foreign to me having been an Army guy.
Any idea where I might find that larger propeller that turns in the correct direction?
Thanks...Greatmodels and Squadron both have the Hampton I believe. I need to get some reference photos so I can get a better idea of some of the things you, Garry and SSN693 are referring to. Some of those parts are foreign to me having been an Army guy.
Any idea where I might find that larger propeller that turns in the correct direction?
SSN693
Joined: November 15, 2004
KitMaker: 8 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 02:18 PM UTC
Flagship Models has a PE set of Modern Submarine propellers. First flight 688's had a 7 blade prop with variable pitch, which means the blade flattens out toward the tip.
SSN693
Joined: November 15, 2004
KitMaker: 8 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 02:21 PM UTC
If you are doing a Cincinnati, just smooth out the vertical launch tube doors, because the Cincinnati didn't have vertical launch tubes. They weren't intalled until the 719 I believe. And the pattern on the first two boats is deifferent than the rest of the class.
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