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converting Trumpeter's Lex to pre-war
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 11:48 AM UTC
I've asked this on the ship net, but they seem to be having major problems right nw so I can't get in to find out the answer to my question, so I'm hoping those of them that pop over here or even one of our own experts can help. I want to build the 350 scale Lexington pre-war. It looks like all I will have to do is substitute the 8" guns for whatever they replaced them with and paint accordingly. I know the front of the flight deck was redone but that was in 1936, so no poblemo. Can anyone tell me where I can get the 4 8" turrets with the guns from, and paint schemes on aircraft cira 1939-1940 or so...plan to use the Wildcat, Dauntless, and Devastator aircraft but want to go yellowwing and mixed fusalauge colors
modelguy2
Joined: March 09, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 12:48 PM UTC
I believe Yankee Modelworks has done a conversion (or has plans to) for their resin kit. Check with John.
Yankee Modelworks CV 2 page
Yankee Modelworks CV 2 page
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 03:30 PM UTC
Why would I want to spend $800 on a resin kit when I can get an injected for under $100. All I need is the 4 8 inch gun sets. DoesYankee Modelworks sell parts or only complete kits. Looking at their listing I can't tell
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 03:38 PM UTC
Ah maybe you could just email them and see if they might ah maybe just sell to you the ah turrets.
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 03:44 PM UTC
That'll probably be what I end up doing, I just thought there were parts out there. I know you can get all sorts of goodies in 700 hoped the same was true in 350.
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 03:48 PM UTC
Hey Steve!
Mike said they sell the conversion, so I would say that it is a conversion set sold sepratly. Another thing, I thought the Lex only had 2, 8" turrets, did it realy have 4 ? I cant remember now.
Garry
Mike said they sell the conversion, so I would say that it is a conversion set sold sepratly. Another thing, I thought the Lex only had 2, 8" turrets, did it realy have 4 ? I cant remember now.
Garry
modelguy2
Joined: March 09, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 04:04 PM UTC
A few months back John mentioned doing the 8" Turrets to backdate the resin kit. I didn't see any mention on the site either-that's why I said ask?
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 02:33 AM UTC
Here' s some info that I found. I guess you could just make the turrets yourself. There probably aren't any plastic kit to borrow the turrets from.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-l/cv2.htm[/url
[url]http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/carriers/cv2.htm
]
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-l/cv2.htm[/url
[url]http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/carriers/cv2.htm
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Can anyone tell me where I can get the 4 8" turrets with the guns from, and paint schemes on aircraft cira 1939-1940 or so...plan to use the Wildcat, Dauntless, and Devastator aircraft but want to go yellowwing and mixed fusalauge colors
Steve, somewhere in my reference material down in the basement, I know I have the information on the color schemes used in the pre-war air groups.
Planes in each squadron were in three ship sections, each with a separate color. The section leader had the full cowl painted in that color, and a chevron of that color on the top of the wing (with the old bi-planes) and also a band around the waist. The two ship had the top of the cowl painted in that color, and the three ship had the bottom I belive. Aircraft 4-6, 7-9 etc, all had a different color which was specified. And in addition to the carrier letters (LEX, SARA, RNGR, etc) each carrier had a unique tail color for all a/c. I'll go see what's down in the stacks.
Tom
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 07:35 AM UTC
Steve, isn't the follow up Saragtoga supposed to be the pre World War II version? You could just wait on it.
Also besides the 8" guns you'd probably also have to remove the large radar set I noticed on the photos of the Trumpeter kit.
Also besides the 8" guns you'd probably also have to remove the large radar set I noticed on the photos of the Trumpeter kit.
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:11 AM UTC
Rodger, I heard the Sara was going to be late war with the torpedo bulges added and all the 40mm AA mounts under the flight deck. My concern with Yankee modelworks is that those 8" batteries are included with that $800 kit and unless they are making extra they may be reluctant to sell. Besides....$800 down from $1200 doesn't sound very "poor-boy" friendly to me. I figure $10 is a fair price, maybe $20 for metal gun tubes, say I wonder if Steve Nuttal will do this for around $5 or $6 a turret?
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:20 AM UTC
OK, Steve, I found the reference information about the pre-war air wing colors. Part of the information comes from the "Fahey's Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet", and the rest from two old Squadron/Signal books published in 1987.
One thing to note: Neither the Grumman F4F Wildcat nor the NAVY Douglas SBD Dauntless ever sported the pre-war colors as far as I can tell. (Three MARINE squadrons got the first 57 SBD-1's which were the only SBDs to enter service before the pre-war colors were dropped sometime around the end of 1940. Lexington and Enterprise got -2's in late 1941, but by then the colors were gone.
So if you're going to do Air Group 2 or 3 on a pre-war Lexington Class (personally, I'd do Saratoga so you could do the cool stripe down the stack!), the "Identification codes" for the ends of the flight deck are "LEX" or "SARA", and the tail colors are Yellow and White respectively.
Lexington's Air Group would consist of VF-2 equipped with F2A Brewster Buffalos, (18 operational aircraft, and 9 spares). There were two Divisions, each consisted of 3 Sections, each with three aircraft. The section leader's plane had a band around the fuselage of the section color, and the entire cowl painted with the section color. The second plane had just the top half of the cowl painted in the section color, and the third just the bottom. All three had "chevrons" on the upper wing surface in the section color.
The numbers on the side would be 2-F-x
Colors and numbers were:
Section 1 Red (1 - 3)
Section 2 White (4 - 6)
Section 3 Blue (7 - 9)
Section 4 Black (10 - 12)
Section 5 Green (13 - 15)
Section 6 Yellow (16 - 18)
The remaining squadrons were VS-2 (2-S-x) and VB-2, (2-B-x), configured as above, but probably flying the Vought-Sikorsky SB2U "Vindicator".
And finally VT-2 (2-T-x) with 18 Douglas TBD Devastators.
Sorry for the length of the note, hope it's what you needed.
Tom
One thing to note: Neither the Grumman F4F Wildcat nor the NAVY Douglas SBD Dauntless ever sported the pre-war colors as far as I can tell. (Three MARINE squadrons got the first 57 SBD-1's which were the only SBDs to enter service before the pre-war colors were dropped sometime around the end of 1940. Lexington and Enterprise got -2's in late 1941, but by then the colors were gone.
So if you're going to do Air Group 2 or 3 on a pre-war Lexington Class (personally, I'd do Saratoga so you could do the cool stripe down the stack!), the "Identification codes" for the ends of the flight deck are "LEX" or "SARA", and the tail colors are Yellow and White respectively.
Lexington's Air Group would consist of VF-2 equipped with F2A Brewster Buffalos, (18 operational aircraft, and 9 spares). There were two Divisions, each consisted of 3 Sections, each with three aircraft. The section leader's plane had a band around the fuselage of the section color, and the entire cowl painted with the section color. The second plane had just the top half of the cowl painted in the section color, and the third just the bottom. All three had "chevrons" on the upper wing surface in the section color.
The numbers on the side would be 2-F-x
Colors and numbers were:
Section 1 Red (1 - 3)
Section 2 White (4 - 6)
Section 3 Blue (7 - 9)
Section 4 Black (10 - 12)
Section 5 Green (13 - 15)
Section 6 Yellow (16 - 18)
The remaining squadrons were VS-2 (2-S-x) and VB-2, (2-B-x), configured as above, but probably flying the Vought-Sikorsky SB2U "Vindicator".
And finally VT-2 (2-T-x) with 18 Douglas TBD Devastators.
Sorry for the length of the note, hope it's what you needed.
Tom
modelguy2
Joined: March 09, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My concern with Yankee modelworks is that those 8" batteries are included with that $800 kit and unless they are making extra they may be reluctant to sell.
Hi Steve,
If John has any business savy (and I'm sure he does) He'll see the opening market for conversion parts and cater to it. I'm sure as well there'll be pre war planes offered too. Patience-wait and see. I waited a few months after the Essex came out and got 2 from squadron at $60 each. I am dissapointed that there were no subscriber specials this past holiday season, or for quite some time as a matter of fact.......
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:18 PM UTC
First
Thanks Tom for the data on the flight wing colors. I copied and printed it for my reference material for kit
Mike thanks for your inquiries. You are right, the kit isn't out yet, and there probably will be a conversion that will be available withi a few months. I know Tom's is working on a PE set.. It ain't like I don't already have enough on my plate for the next six months to even look at this one.
Thanks Tom for the data on the flight wing colors. I copied and printed it for my reference material for kit
Mike thanks for your inquiries. You are right, the kit isn't out yet, and there probably will be a conversion that will be available withi a few months. I know Tom's is working on a PE set.. It ain't like I don't already have enough on my plate for the next six months to even look at this one.
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 03:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
First
I copied and printed it for my reference material for kit
COPIED IT??? Why, Mr Joyce, that's "pertinent information!!!! Sound off, Mister!! :-) :-) :-)
(Private inside VMI joke!!!)
Tom Class of 1972
modelguy2
Joined: March 09, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 06:34 AM UTC
From Yankee Modelworks today:
Lexington CV-2 Airwing Decals -
These are now avialable for the 1942 airwing. We will add the white lettering for the earlier wings when we get a moment.
Lexington fix-it kit.
We will create a resin kit that will correct some of the mistakes in the Trumpeter USS Lexington kit. This kit will also contain the 8 inch guns so that you can backdate the kit to 1938 if you wish. We will get this into production as soon as I adapt the parts to fit on the Trumpeter kit. I will be adding a photo-etch set as well. Price TBA
Lexington CV-2 Airwing Decals -
These are now avialable for the 1942 airwing. We will add the white lettering for the earlier wings when we get a moment.
Lexington fix-it kit.
We will create a resin kit that will correct some of the mistakes in the Trumpeter USS Lexington kit. This kit will also contain the 8 inch guns so that you can backdate the kit to 1938 if you wish. We will get this into production as soon as I adapt the parts to fit on the Trumpeter kit. I will be adding a photo-etch set as well. Price TBA
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 08:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
We will create a resin kit that will correct some of the mistakes in the Trumpeter USS Lexington kit. This kit will also contain the 8 inch guns so that you can backdate the kit to 1938 if you wish.
One of the things for the purists, if depicting the Lexington/Saratoga as they appeared in 1938, planes will become a problem.
Fighters during that period would have been the Grumman F3F-2 (a bi-plane).
I've got to do a little more digging to see whether both VS/VB 2 and VS/VB 3 operated the same aircraft as each other.
Both the monowing Chance-Vought SB2U and the bi-plane Curtiss SBC were in service during that period, and it may be that the two different Groups did not operate the same aircraft. My reference specifically states that the Curtiss SBC-3 was in VS-3 (as well as VS-5 and VS-6), but doesn't mention Lexington. But the reference also does not address the SBC-2s and that may be the problem.
I've got some more reference books, so I guess it's back to the stacks.
Tom
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:58 PM UTC
:[]
Sir:
Cadet Joyce answering special report
Correct but wish to explain
Sir as cadet wishes to do all things in a professioal manner he deemed it necessary to copy said reference material for personnal use only. He did not have access to reference material any other way.
Cadet S. M. Joyce
VMI 76--
I will be content with brewster Buffaloes if they are available in 350 scale
Sir:
Cadet Joyce answering special report
Correct but wish to explain
Sir as cadet wishes to do all things in a professioal manner he deemed it necessary to copy said reference material for personnal use only. He did not have access to reference material any other way.
Cadet S. M. Joyce
VMI 76--
I will be content with brewster Buffaloes if they are available in 350 scale
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Friday, January 14, 2005 - 04:13 AM UTC
To: Cadet Joyce, SM
Subject: Special Report
1. Explanation is satisfactory.
2. Professionalism is always expected and therefore accepted.
Hathaway, TC
VMI 72
:-) :-) :-)
Now for even MORE information. One of the things that I love about military modeling is the linkage with histroy, and luckily there are people with a similar passion for creating good historical reference works!
I consulted two very fine sources:
Aircraft Carriers of the U.S. Navy (Stefan Terzibaschitsch 1989) as well as the Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet by Fahey (1939 and 1941 Editions)
Lexington (CV-2) 1939
VF-2 Grumman F2F-1 (biplane)
VB-2 Vought-Sikorsky SB2U-2 Vindicator (monoplane)
VT-2 Douglass TBD-1 Devastator (monoplane)
VS-2 Curtiss SBC-3 (biplane)
(Later upgraded to SBC-4 only fleet squadron to do so)
Total Aircraft was 80, so each squadron had 18 of type, and a couple of "admin" per squadron.
Saratoga (CV-3) 1939
VF-3 Grumman F2F-1 (biplane)
(Later mixed squadron of 9 Grumman F3F-1 biplanes [ 1-9 ] and 9 Brewster F2A-1 Buffalo monoplanes [10 - 18] )
VB-3 Vought-Sikorsky SB2U-2 Vindicator (monoplane)
VT-3 Douglass TBD-1 Devastator (monoplane)
VS-3 Curtiss SBC-3 (biplane)
Saratoga had 81 and I'm not sure why the extra one.
I suppose that at 1/350 scale you MIGHT be able to modify a Wildcat into a Buffalo, and you MIGHT be able to modify a Devastator into a Vindicator. Dimensions are not quite the same but you could probably convert. But as for the biplanes, somebody would have to do some work on that.
If you're going to the trouble to make a conversion kit to take these ships back to pre-war (a VERY good idea IMHO!), then the aircraft ought to match.
Tom
Subject: Special Report
1. Explanation is satisfactory.
2. Professionalism is always expected and therefore accepted.
Hathaway, TC
VMI 72
:-) :-) :-)
Now for even MORE information. One of the things that I love about military modeling is the linkage with histroy, and luckily there are people with a similar passion for creating good historical reference works!
I consulted two very fine sources:
Aircraft Carriers of the U.S. Navy (Stefan Terzibaschitsch 1989) as well as the Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet by Fahey (1939 and 1941 Editions)
Lexington (CV-2) 1939
VF-2 Grumman F2F-1 (biplane)
VB-2 Vought-Sikorsky SB2U-2 Vindicator (monoplane)
VT-2 Douglass TBD-1 Devastator (monoplane)
VS-2 Curtiss SBC-3 (biplane)
(Later upgraded to SBC-4 only fleet squadron to do so)
Total Aircraft was 80, so each squadron had 18 of type, and a couple of "admin" per squadron.
Saratoga (CV-3) 1939
VF-3 Grumman F2F-1 (biplane)
(Later mixed squadron of 9 Grumman F3F-1 biplanes [ 1-9 ] and 9 Brewster F2A-1 Buffalo monoplanes [10 - 18] )
VB-3 Vought-Sikorsky SB2U-2 Vindicator (monoplane)
VT-3 Douglass TBD-1 Devastator (monoplane)
VS-3 Curtiss SBC-3 (biplane)
Saratoga had 81 and I'm not sure why the extra one.
I suppose that at 1/350 scale you MIGHT be able to modify a Wildcat into a Buffalo, and you MIGHT be able to modify a Devastator into a Vindicator. Dimensions are not quite the same but you could probably convert. But as for the biplanes, somebody would have to do some work on that.
If you're going to the trouble to make a conversion kit to take these ships back to pre-war (a VERY good idea IMHO!), then the aircraft ought to match.
Tom
desertmole
Joined: February 04, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:26 PM UTC
Arright you guys, knock it off or I'll send the OD around to your rooms for a stick check! Specially you, Joyce, what are you doing with ships when you used to be in the Tanker Platoon? :-)
I have thought long and hard about converting the Lex to a pre-war, but the most daunting thing is the air groups. Now if WEM or someone would make 1/350 Buffalos or F2Fs it would be a lot easier. I had suggested such over on Steel Navy a while back, but it didn't seem to generate much interest at the time. Perhaps now it will be different.
A couple of years ago my wife bought me a USS Lex from BWN/YMW for my birthday. Talk about stunned. I haven't started it simply because I felt I needed to polish my skills before starting it. Then I changed jobs and ended up here in Afghanistan, and my kits are all in NZ where my family lives now. I have ordered a Trumpy Lex, and figure I will practice on her. I do have the YMW backdating kit for their Lex here so I can see what it will take to add the turrets. The backdating kit was $19.95 for the turrets and mounts.
Doubt you can modify the F4F to an F2A. Too many differences in size and shape. The same is probably true for the TBD to SB2U. You might be able to get away with using the wings from an OS2U and finding an appropriate fuselage, since they are the right shape.
I might suggest you post the Lex '39 air group types and numbers over on Steel Navy, and see if you can generate some interest. Perhaps one of the aftermarket guys might pick up on it, if you get others to chime in as interested.
Chuck Wohlrab '75
I have thought long and hard about converting the Lex to a pre-war, but the most daunting thing is the air groups. Now if WEM or someone would make 1/350 Buffalos or F2Fs it would be a lot easier. I had suggested such over on Steel Navy a while back, but it didn't seem to generate much interest at the time. Perhaps now it will be different.
A couple of years ago my wife bought me a USS Lex from BWN/YMW for my birthday. Talk about stunned. I haven't started it simply because I felt I needed to polish my skills before starting it. Then I changed jobs and ended up here in Afghanistan, and my kits are all in NZ where my family lives now. I have ordered a Trumpy Lex, and figure I will practice on her. I do have the YMW backdating kit for their Lex here so I can see what it will take to add the turrets. The backdating kit was $19.95 for the turrets and mounts.
Doubt you can modify the F4F to an F2A. Too many differences in size and shape. The same is probably true for the TBD to SB2U. You might be able to get away with using the wings from an OS2U and finding an appropriate fuselage, since they are the right shape.
I might suggest you post the Lex '39 air group types and numbers over on Steel Navy, and see if you can generate some interest. Perhaps one of the aftermarket guys might pick up on it, if you get others to chime in as interested.
Chuck Wohlrab '75
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2005 - 03:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Arright you guys, knock it off or I'll send the OD around to your rooms for a stick check! Specially you, Joyce, what are you doing with ships when you used to be in the Tanker Platoon? :-)
I might suggest you post the Lex '39 air group types and numbers over on Steel Navy, and see if you can generate some interest. Perhaps one of the aftermarket guys might pick up on it, if you get others to chime in as interested.
Chuck Wohlrab '75
Mr. Wohlrab! Did I give you rest???? Which one of my BRs is your Firstclassman??? :-)
You're more than welcome to cut and paste the info from here on the Air Groups from pre-war if you'd like and are already on the Steel Navy site. It seems like a natural to have those aircraft if you're going to offer the stuff to make a pre-war back date on those kits. Just makes sense to offer all the stuff to make Saratoga updated to whatever period you choose since she served throughout the war, and be able to backdate those magnificent ships to the "golden age".
TC '72
desertmole
Joined: February 04, 2004
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2005 - 03:28 PM UTC
Uh, uh, Yes Sir, No Sir, I mean The inscription on the Parapet reads: "A Healthful and pleasant abode..."
Bub Robbins and Scot Haas.
Can do on posting on Steel Navy. If you haven't checked it out in the past I recommend you do so. It is an open forum, so no registration is required.
I personally would love to do a Sara dating to when Halsey was captain, but suspect that would require a lot of alteration as well. I don't have my sources here to look up exactly what would be required.
Cheers,
Chuck
Quoted Text
Mr. Wohlrab! Did I give you rest???? Which one of my BRs is your Firstclassman??? :-)
Bub Robbins and Scot Haas.
Can do on posting on Steel Navy. If you haven't checked it out in the past I recommend you do so. It is an open forum, so no registration is required.
I personally would love to do a Sara dating to when Halsey was captain, but suspect that would require a lot of alteration as well. I don't have my sources here to look up exactly what would be required.
Cheers,
Chuck
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 03:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I personally would love to do a Sara dating to when Halsey was captain, but suspect that would require a lot of alteration as well. I don't have my sources here to look up exactly what would be required.
Cheers,
Chuck
I would think that if you had kits to "backdate" to pre-war (1938 or so) that there would not only be very little difference between then and the period when Halsey was CO. (When was that, mid '30s?) Without checking to make sure, I don't thing there were a lot of changes made to the two ships during that time. And I don't think that there were any significant differences between the two ships.
Other than the BIG WIDE BLACK stripe down the Saratoga's stack. Even with that, pilots sometimes landed on the wrong deck and that was a source of extreme embarassment for the unlucky pilot, and extreme humor for the crew of the ship! :-)
My rats were Andy Bradshaw, and Stewart Fleming. I'd known Andy's brother "Butch", who was killed in a car wreck on his way to ROTC Avance Camp during the summer before his First Class year, and Stewart's dad and mine were BRs.
Take care of yourself.
TC '72
MartinJQuinn
Joined: January 19, 2005
KitMaker: 574 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 04:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
I personally would love to do a Sara dating to when Halsey was captain, but suspect that would require a lot of alteration as well. I don't have my sources here to look up exactly what would be required.
Cheers,
Chuck
I would think that if you had kits to "backdate" to pre-war (1938 or so) that there would not only be very little difference between then and the period when Halsey was CO. (When was that, mid '30s?) Without checking to make sure, I don't thing there were a lot of changes made to the two ships during that time. And I don't think that there were any significant differences between the two ships.
Other than the BIG WIDE BLACK stripe down the Saratoga's stack. Even with that, pilots sometimes landed on the wrong deck and that was a source of extreme embarassment for the unlucky pilot, and extreme humor for the crew of the ship! :-)
Lexington had her forward flight deck widened in 1938, so any Lexington you build from the Trumpeter kit would have to be post-refit. As previously mentioned, Yankee Modelworks has announced they are going to sell their Lexington turrets as a seperate conversion set. Obviously, you'll need those for any pre-March 1942 Lex.
Sara had her flight deck widened in 1941. IIRC, she also had a different sponson arrangement added for her AA guns when the flight deck was widened. So, without some scratchbuilding, I don't think you'll be albe to make any version of Sara from the Lex kit.
Here's a picture of Lex with the narrow (pre-1938) foward flight deck.
Navsource has a picture of her later in 1938 with the wider bow:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020201.jpg
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 05:20 AM UTC
Martin, thanks for the posting. The other big hurdle for people wanting to make a pre-war version, (and I'd think there should be some interest in that) will probably come down to the requirement to have the appropriate bi-plane aircraft.
Despite the fact that all the modernaizations (particulary to the Saratoga by the end of the war) made her much more effective as a combatant, the pre-war ships (as evidenced by your photo) were certainly a lot "prettier".
But then, they were warships and pretty don't count!
Tom
Despite the fact that all the modernaizations (particulary to the Saratoga by the end of the war) made her much more effective as a combatant, the pre-war ships (as evidenced by your photo) were certainly a lot "prettier".
But then, they were warships and pretty don't count!
Tom
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