_GOTOBOTTOM
Ships by Class/Type: Submarines
Topics on submarines of all types and eras.
CSS Hunley kits, Other ACW Subs
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 08:15 AM UTC
Hello - i've seen the Charleston 1/72 around the Net for $30, but is there a better price?

version an updated kit? ( It seems much less available in the US than the Charleston).

Feel free to use this as a general Hunley/ACW sub thread.
AJLaFleche
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
Model Shipwrights: 34 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 03:05 AM UTC
There are two correct kits of teh Hunley. Cottage Industries 1/72 for $29.99 and Verlinden's 1/32 at $47.99 which has both a full hull and a waterline models in the box. Both are available from Military Miniatures Warehouse. These were produced after the boat was discovered and the have the correct nose shape and torpedo placement.
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 04:46 AM UTC
TY, Al. I'm hoping to find a discount, or even a slightly started kit.

Verlinden has a "1 & 1/2" kit ( whole hull + waterline kit) which is very reasonable.
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:06 AM UTC
Wood for hullsis a logical material given their simplicity of form - maybe some maker will take the hint re the Hunley. Cast pewter fittings?

The brittleness of resin makes it a problem especially for small parts. Seems like the formula could be improved.

Even casting the entire hull in 2 sections in pewter for the 1/72 would be nice, give it some heft as well as greater precision.

Given all the interest in the Hunley i'd think someone would do an injection kit.
AJLaFleche
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
Model Shipwrights: 34 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 04:37 PM UTC
I built the Cottage Industry's 1/72. It's really a multi-media kit. The hull was a one piece casting with separate reel, dive vanes, snorkels, rudder, splitters, prop and guard in resin, The torpedo was resin as well but the barb was weak and I replaced it with sheet stock as well as the splitters as one was damaged. IIRC, I replaced the snorkels with brass rod, too. Easy enough. The kit included brass rod for the boom and fiddly bits at the stern.
Check your pm, if you can make this week's meeting, let me know and I'll bring in the completed kit for you examination.
Al
skipper
Visit this Community
Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 12:14 AM UTC
Hi all!

Sorry for the late answering, but I was off Big A during this weekend, and only catch this tread now!!

I have both models that you mention, as well as the older CIM Hl Hunley models (pre-discovery of the remains).

About CIM 1/72 and Verlinden 1/32 models, I think IMHO that CIM as done the proper homework, specially when it comes to the spar torpedo...
So I have made my Verlinden model using as reference the CIM model and using these three websites as some more reference, making my own decision on some "not clear" situations... So, I can call, that it has some "artistic license"!

References Online:
Spar Theories

Friends of the Hunley

Charleston Illustrated

And my model...







Skipper
MadMeex
Visit this Community
Vaasa, Finland
Joined: August 07, 2002
KitMaker: 424 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 02:10 AM UTC
I've built the Verlinden full hull Hunley, and it is unfortunately missing the upper spar. I scratchbuilt mine, and then attached the "support rope" or whatever it is to the lower torpedo spar. For references I used the Hunley web site.

Mika
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 02:25 AM UTC
Thanks all., I'm semi-housebound so can't get to any meetings.

Nice job, Skipper. So the boat was originally painted black? As i recall it looks gray in the famous painting of it on the dock.

Is it known yet what role was played by the hole punched in the forward conning tower, & what caused it?
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 02:38 AM UTC
See site "Colour schemes for ACW vessels":

Coal tar (in various colors including white) was often used as a rust preventive on ironclads.

To depict bare unpainted iron, a mixture of matte black & silver paint can be used.

Was the torpedo really that big in relation to the boat?
skipper
Visit this Community
Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 04:53 AM UTC
Hi Chicora

Thanks for the compliment regarding my Hunley.
For the comments that you made:
- Dimension of the Spar Torpedo: Also here there's no absolute and accurate knowledge, so I used the one that seemed more convincing and logical to me (it is mentioned in one of the sites that I listed in the earlyer post).
- Colour of the Hunley: On Conrad Chapman's painting it is painted in a Greyish colour, similar to the grey used by CSS David torpedo boats. Others state that it should be black... Since no one knows for sure yet (I think that they will discover it, sooner or later) I opted to paint it black, considering that the Hunley had sunk two times already at the time of her last sinking (making a total of 3 times) and also considering that the Hunley was built from an old Locomotive boiler, and that the main preocupation of Mr. Horace was, until the fatal day, prove the utillity of this "conning" weapon, no particular attention would be paid to the colour and appearance of the machine

You can state that I am speculating or making wild guesses, but the options that I have made where the result of my interpretation of the facts, plus some commom knowlege - I prefer to call it "artistic license"

- Puncture in the forward conning tower:
So far no explanation has been given

Best regards,

Skipper
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 06:22 AM UTC
Thanks, Skipper. Chapman's painting is so accurate overall that i would be inclined to trust him as to the color.

Unfinished iron would rust rather quickly but he may have "cleaned that up", using his own artistic license to create what would have been considered in those days a more aesthetic effect.

(Period iron was however inherantly more rust-resistant than the typical modern iron or steel due to its high carbon content).

A rust-preventative coal tar finish (which as noted above could be various colors, even white) would be another option. Possibly some traces of finish will turn up on the hull.
95bravo
Visit this Community
Kansas, United States
Joined: November 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,242 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,064 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 06:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You can state that I am speculating or making wild guesses, but the options that I have made where the result of my interpretation of the facts, plus some commom knowlege - I prefer to call it "artistic license"
Skipper



I wouldn't.

I would say that your color choice was based on solid historical observations. I would have chose black for the same reasons It would have been a common and easy to procure color. So I would be more inclined to dispute any color other than black.

I agree with The Skip's analysis.

Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 06:43 AM UTC
Google the site "acw ironclad colour schemes" for an overview.
AJLaFleche
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
Model Shipwrights: 34 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 08:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

You can state that I am speculating or making wild guesses, but the options that I have made where the result of my interpretation of the facts, plus some commom knowlege - I prefer to call it "artistic license"
Skipper



I wouldn't.

I would say that your color choice was based on solid historical observations. I would have chose black for the same reasons It would have been a common and easy to procure color. So I would be more inclined to dispute any color other than black.

I agree with The Skip's analysis.

Remember, too, the Hunley's only operational mission was at night. A light colored vessel near the surface would not be a terribly good idea, even on a moonless night.


Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 09:21 AM UTC
I believe the sole document we have is Chapman. There's a certain association of boiler plate/cast iron with black, which is why the "old time" ACW relic hunters used to paint their dug artilllery rounds black.

There'a a psychology involved. For example in WW2 the Allies found that gray rather than black was the best color to help conceal night fighters & bombers, but they stayed with black anyway! (The Germans used various gray schemes).
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:25 AM UTC
I was mistaken about Chapman's painting being the only document. Chapman worked from the Cook photograph, & there the light color of the Hunley is apparent (again, possibly coal tar). See TheHunley.com, Newsletter 47.
95bravo
Visit this Community
Kansas, United States
Joined: November 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,242 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,064 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I believe the sole document we have is Chapman. There's a certain association of boiler plate/cast iron with black, which is why the "old time" ACW relic hunters used to paint their dug artilllery rounds black.

There'a a psychology involved. For example in WW2 the Allies found that gray rather than black was the best color to help conceal night fighters & bombers, but they stayed with black anyway! (The Germans used various gray schemes).



And to further muddy the waters...

Early Gato class subs were painted all black...and Frank told me of an all blue sub that tied up next them (the Narwhal) at Pearl. It was, in time, discovered that the all black subs (and blue) were not desireable and they shifted to the grey with the black upper surfaces.

I'll leave you now with your respective bottles of asprin.
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:33 AM UTC
It would seem to me that the Cook photo has to be considered definitive.

See also 3 comparative models of the Alligator, the Hunley, & the Pioneer: Google "Thehunley.com threeships"
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2005 - 04:28 AM UTC
What are the colors called for in the instructions?
skipper
Visit this Community
Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2005 - 04:44 AM UTC
Hi all!

I am terribly sorry, but I had missed this tread for a few days...
I read all the tread, since my last entrance, and I only can say this:
1 - which colour was used, probably we will know in a few months (or years), during the REAL HL HUNLEY remains analysis;
2 - As I stated before, I used my artistic license to paint the model;
3 - I have 5 different models of the Hunley and all (but 2 from the same company) are different!!! It's only natural that the painting schemes also difer

And answering your last question, Chicora, the Verlinden model doesn't have instructions. Just bags with parts, and 4 colour pictures on the front of the box.

I would like to say, that the porpose of my modeling activity is to have fun, and learn some history and storyes in the process... Ok, I admit that sometimes I could make some mistake (everybody makes) but I tend to be a "little" boring and annoing regarding to details.

Anyway in case of dought, make your pick and if you're wrong, nothing is lost - it's just a model!

Skipper
skipper
Visit this Community
Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2005 - 04:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I wouldn't.

I would say that your color choice was based on solid historical observations. I would have chose black for the same reasons It would have been a common and easy to procure color. So I would be more inclined to dispute any color other than black.

I agree with The Skip's analysis.




Steve,

I nominate you my Lawyer for future actions :-)
Rui (aka Skipper)
Chicora
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: February 26, 2005
KitMaker: 15 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2005 - 04:50 AM UTC
Hi Skip. I'm sorry if i seemed to be critical, that was not my intent. I just want to get the most accurate scheme based on the evidence.

Also, i didn't make it clear that i was asking about the colors called for in the Cottage Industries kit.
skipper
Visit this Community
Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2005 - 05:37 AM UTC
Hi Chicora

No offense taken

Back to business
If my memory serves me well with the computer giving a littel help:
Cottage Industries:
their 1/32 model
This model I don't have - It is very expensive! But here we have a Grey / or (Metalized) on the pics

Cottage Industries Models (CIM)
CIM 1/72 model
I have this one - and they refer Black

Verlinden Productions
Hunley
No colour advised

CIM's 1/32 models (pre-discovery) and they advice Black
old 1/72 scale models by 12Squared (injection - short run) and LoneStar Models (resin) and both state black.

Also have in mind that the "replica" that was (is?) in Charleston (that served as the first 1/32 scale CIM's models) was painted black in a period when all the operational subs where painted black - sign of the times!!

But as I told you before, I draw my conclusions out of several sources

Skipper
95bravo
Visit this Community
Kansas, United States
Joined: November 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,242 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,064 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2005 - 03:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I nominate you my Lawyer for future actions :-)
Rui (aka Skipper)



The bill is in the mail Skip, plus I'm awaiting the arrival of my retainer fee from you. :-) :-) :-)
95bravo
Visit this Community
Kansas, United States
Joined: November 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,242 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,064 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2005 - 03:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Skip. I'm sorry if i seemed to be critical, that was not my intent. I just want to get the most accurate scheme based on the evidence.



I do have a queastion regarding this, when was the Cook photograph taken? Was it taken just prior (like the day before or a day or two) to the mission in which it sank or a considerable time before?

If so, it would seem reasonable to consider that the the Hunley could have been repainted after this photo was taken. As an example, look how many time the Bismarck was repainted in a short time before she went down.

It's just a thought
 _GOTOTOP