I found this on another site, that was referencing a VERY questionable site but this BBC site is much better.
Raise the Graf Spee
I'm not 100% sure how I feel about this. All of her dead were removed and burried ashore, so she's not a war grave. On the other hand she fought a good fight and I don't like the idea of her becomming a "tourist attraction." On the other hand she flew the Nazi flag and, good or bad, she was a symbol of the Nazis.
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Raising the Graf Spee
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
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Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:01 PM UTC
Gunny
Joined: July 13, 2004
KitMaker: 6,705 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 12:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey Rodge!I found this on another site, that was referencing a VERY questionable site but this BBC site is much better.
Raise the Graf Spee
I'm not 100% sure how I feel about this. All of her dead were removed and burried ashore, so she's not a war grave. On the other hand she fought a good fight and I don't like the idea of her becomming a "tourist attraction." On the other hand she flew the Nazi flag and, good or bad, she was a symbol of the Nazis.
Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing...you make some good points, mate, and I think the last line of your post kind of sums up my feelings on this subject...I would really hate to see her become a "tourist attraction" as well, but historicaly, there is a place for this ship as an exhibit. Done right, it could be something quite interesting, indeed.
Gunny
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 03:09 PM UTC
Langsdorff however was not a NAZI. If my memory serves me, he wrapped himself in an Imperial Naval ensign before he killed himself. I think it would make a good war memorial. The German's aboard that ship always acted honorably and with great chivalry.
Fordboy
Joined: July 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,169 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 04:27 PM UTC
Hi Rodger
Thanks for that information.
I kinda agree with you the raising of this ship like so many wrecks is a tricky situation very emotive etc.
Yes part of me would love for the modern world to get access to it or parts of it but another part of me is uncomfortable in creating a huge tourist attraction and any disrespect to those that served on her and their families.
I quess I have mixed feelings.
Regards
Sean
Thanks for that information.
I kinda agree with you the raising of this ship like so many wrecks is a tricky situation very emotive etc.
Yes part of me would love for the modern world to get access to it or parts of it but another part of me is uncomfortable in creating a huge tourist attraction and any disrespect to those that served on her and their families.
I quess I have mixed feelings.
Regards
Sean
geronimo
Joined: April 02, 2004
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 10:05 PM UTC
Rodger,
personally I really don't care if she is raised or not (if I don't have to pay for it).
But I can't agree to your point of a "Nazi symbol". As Steve mentioned, Cpt. Langsdorff was not a Nazi. From your point of view, every German weapon of WW2 should be considered a "Nazi symbol".
What about all the fellow modelers who build King Tigers, Focke-Wulfs, Messerschmitts, U-boats and that stuff ? Not to mention the Bismarck ...
Those were weapons designed to kill people; and for the dead it makes no difference, if they were killed by a "politically correct weapon" or not.
I won't go to much into detail here about fascism, racism, apartheid, unjustified wars and that stuff. It could easily be misunderstood.
Sh**, that's more than I wanted to write.
Rodger (& anyone else), we should change to pm.
Good night
Frank
personally I really don't care if she is raised or not (if I don't have to pay for it).
But I can't agree to your point of a "Nazi symbol". As Steve mentioned, Cpt. Langsdorff was not a Nazi. From your point of view, every German weapon of WW2 should be considered a "Nazi symbol".
What about all the fellow modelers who build King Tigers, Focke-Wulfs, Messerschmitts, U-boats and that stuff ? Not to mention the Bismarck ...
Those were weapons designed to kill people; and for the dead it makes no difference, if they were killed by a "politically correct weapon" or not.
I won't go to much into detail here about fascism, racism, apartheid, unjustified wars and that stuff. It could easily be misunderstood.
Sh**, that's more than I wanted to write.
Rodger (& anyone else), we should change to pm.
Good night
Frank
Spades
Joined: February 08, 2003
KitMaker: 776 posts
Model Shipwrights: 58 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 11:24 PM UTC
Hey, I think the idea of raising this ship is absolutely great. Why not have something from history come back? If she were a "war grave", then leave her alone, but she's not.
Would I visit the ship once it was brought back ?? Hell yeah. Did it serve germany during WW2, yes, so why not raise her ?? How many of you would be AWED by the fact you would be walking on the same deck where history was made ???? hhhmmmmm.......
How many times has someone located a wreck of a german vehicle, refurbished it and drive it around at conventions ?? I dont see people griping about who it served and what it represented/stood for. People just gawk and wow at seeing a piece of history.
Should we not do this just because it was on the AXIS side ?? But yet it's ok to refurbish tanks, armored cars, half tracks, battleships, carriers, cruisers, fighters and bombers because they were ALLIED ????
C'mon,,,lets not get hypocritical either.
Would I visit the ship once it was brought back ?? Hell yeah. Did it serve germany during WW2, yes, so why not raise her ?? How many of you would be AWED by the fact you would be walking on the same deck where history was made ???? hhhmmmmm.......
How many times has someone located a wreck of a german vehicle, refurbished it and drive it around at conventions ?? I dont see people griping about who it served and what it represented/stood for. People just gawk and wow at seeing a piece of history.
Should we not do this just because it was on the AXIS side ?? But yet it's ok to refurbish tanks, armored cars, half tracks, battleships, carriers, cruisers, fighters and bombers because they were ALLIED ????
C'mon,,,lets not get hypocritical either.
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 03:59 AM UTC
Geronimo, I beg to differ on one point of your post. The Graf Spee was indeed a symbol of Naziism based on the propaganda. It was 1939 and Goebells played the success to the hilt. But, as to the rest of your discourse, I and I know Rodger agree with you 100%. I bring models to some of my scout troops meetings. If it is German my scoutmaster touts them as Nazi. I always make it a point to say no the Nazi's were a political party, this is a German weapon system no different from a Sherman or a present day M1a1.
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 04:22 AM UTC
To go along with what Steve said it is because of the early war propaganda that I mentioned the Graf Spee's connection with the Nazis. Warships, even more so that planes or tanks, are symbols of their nation. The Nazis certainly didn't have any problem bragging about how great the exploits of the Graf Spee was.
I once read a pretty good book on the original Admiral Graf Spee, the real guy. At the end of the book the author made the point that if he had sailed under a winning flag, like the British White Ensign, his name would be part of a great naval tradition. As it is he's chiefly remembered by most people because of the Nazis.
As I said, good or bad.
I once read a pretty good book on the original Admiral Graf Spee, the real guy. At the end of the book the author made the point that if he had sailed under a winning flag, like the British White Ensign, his name would be part of a great naval tradition. As it is he's chiefly remembered by most people because of the Nazis.
As I said, good or bad.
geronimo
Joined: April 02, 2004
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 05:15 PM UTC
Hi Rodger & Steve !
Maybe I had a bad day on work yesterday. Sorry, if I exaggerated a bit.
I know what Rodger intended to say, and I'm glad about what Steve wrote. *shakehands*
But isn't it funny even some 60 years after, and most times it's an American statement (no offense, I noticed it much more often on other forums, not necessarily related to modeling):
German WW2 stuff = Nazi stuff
Why ? I'm pretty sure that people don't mean it in a hostile way. Anyway, sometimes it pi**es me off, and that was yesterday.
Cheers guys
Frank
Maybe I had a bad day on work yesterday. Sorry, if I exaggerated a bit.
I know what Rodger intended to say, and I'm glad about what Steve wrote. *shakehands*
But isn't it funny even some 60 years after, and most times it's an American statement (no offense, I noticed it much more often on other forums, not necessarily related to modeling):
German WW2 stuff = Nazi stuff
Why ? I'm pretty sure that people don't mean it in a hostile way. Anyway, sometimes it pi**es me off, and that was yesterday.
Cheers guys
Frank
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,821 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:53 PM UTC
Frank I certainly didn't take any offense by any of your comments. Shake hands by all means, and have a "virtual beer" on me. C [ ]
I guess you could say I'm one quarter, at least, German. My maternal grandmother was a 1st generation German imigrent. I certainly don't take exception to anybody building German equipment. I realize that many, if not most, of the Germans were fighting for their country, not the Nazis. I do though have extreme hatred of the swastika and will go out of my way NOT to include it on any model I build, unless unavoidable. The wreck of the Bismarck I'm building will have one, but that's the way the wreck actually looks on the bottom. I won't modify history just because I want to be PC.
I guess you could say I'm one quarter, at least, German. My maternal grandmother was a 1st generation German imigrent. I certainly don't take exception to anybody building German equipment. I realize that many, if not most, of the Germans were fighting for their country, not the Nazis. I do though have extreme hatred of the swastika and will go out of my way NOT to include it on any model I build, unless unavoidable. The wreck of the Bismarck I'm building will have one, but that's the way the wreck actually looks on the bottom. I won't modify history just because I want to be PC.
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
Model Shipwrights: 3,509 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 03:21 AM UTC
Geronimo, I am half German and like you it ticks me off when Germans are called Nazi. I take offense that the Germans are solely blamed for the holocaust. The French, Poles and Ukrainians gladly helped the SS round the jewish people up and send them down the path. I admire the Italians (My other half) as even though they were closely allied with the Nazi's, they refused to give up their jews. Back on track....I have been to Chicago and seen the U'boat they have there. I feel it was very tastefully done and if the Graf Spee museum / display ends up like that it would honor those who served aboard her.
TacFireGuru
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Model Shipwrights: 60 posts
Posted: Monday, March 13, 2006 - 08:16 AM UTC
I am 50% Pole, and the remaining is a mix of German, French, and Irish (don't ask!!!) My wife is 100% German. My In-Laws are VERY dear to me. My Father-in-Law fought on the Russian Front. With that said,Back on topic:
I think it would be just plain friggin' awsome to step foot on one of the world's best know ships!!! Period. The Graf Spee's history is huge. Can you imagine the mixed emotions of the Spee's former shipmates, or "victims" of the Spee being able to see and touch her? How about the sons and daughters?
Mein zweiter pfennig!
Mike (++) (++)
geronimo
Joined: April 02, 2004
KitMaker: 136 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 02:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Back on topic:
I think it would be just plain friggin' awsome to step foot on one of the world's best know ships!!! Period. The Graf Spee's history is huge. Can you imagine the mixed emotions of the Spee's former shipmates, or "victims" of the Spee being able to see and touch her? How about the sons and daughters?
Mein zweiter pfennig!
Mike (++) (++)
Mike, you're also quite a "mixture" ! Both of my grandpas and one grandma were born in East Prussia and have had Polish ancestors themselves. My other grandma was born in Alsace in 1913 when it still was German. My aunt is married with a French. I am German but feel European. But when it comes to football (soccer in the colonies) I'm a real nationalist, especially against the Netherlands. :-) Btw, since we have the €, we also have cents.
Cheers with the worlds' best beer
Frank
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