I thought I'd open up the Carpenter's Shop, by asking about PE. So far I haven't used any but I was wondering about folding it. I've read about using a straight edge, like a metal ruler, and a razor blade to fold it. This seems to make sense to me, and I certainly can't justify a special tool for doing this. That said I wondered who here had special "hold and fold" PE tools and how you like them?
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Discuss modeling techniques, experiences, and ship modeling in general.
Discuss modeling techniques, experiences, and ship modeling in general.
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Using PE
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 02:38 AM UTC
Gunny
Joined: July 13, 2004
KitMaker: 6,705 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 02:49 AM UTC
Hi Rodger!
I will be glad to answer this one mate, as I myself struggled for years with the stuff, tried many methods, and many cheap hand tools "specifically designed" for bending PE...until THIS year, that is! I finally broke down and sunk in a cool 40 bucks for a 4" Hold-n-Fold mini bender, and I'll tell you what...the first set of 1/700 cranes that I formed up in a matter of painless seconds, the tool paid for itself...and I'm not joking here! My eyesight and my hands are definitely not what they used to be, and I'm afraid that without the purchase of this little beauty I would've abandoned my Flattops entry way back, or at least without any PE additions. I really can't say enough good about the little tool, Rodge. I've used the full sized counterparts in sheetmetal shops throughout my life, and this tool works exactly like them.
Gunny
I will be glad to answer this one mate, as I myself struggled for years with the stuff, tried many methods, and many cheap hand tools "specifically designed" for bending PE...until THIS year, that is! I finally broke down and sunk in a cool 40 bucks for a 4" Hold-n-Fold mini bender, and I'll tell you what...the first set of 1/700 cranes that I formed up in a matter of painless seconds, the tool paid for itself...and I'm not joking here! My eyesight and my hands are definitely not what they used to be, and I'm afraid that without the purchase of this little beauty I would've abandoned my Flattops entry way back, or at least without any PE additions. I really can't say enough good about the little tool, Rodge. I've used the full sized counterparts in sheetmetal shops throughout my life, and this tool works exactly like them.
Gunny
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 04:00 AM UTC
Hi Rodger
Good question for a kick-of post
Since 1993 (more or less) I started using models with PE, namely Verlinden midget subs, and since the PE parts were big enough, I used the blade of my x-acto knive and a ruler to do all of them - with success!
Only last year I started working in 1/700 scale with with my usual tools I might say that some hundreds of "colourfull words" came out while making the USS Forrest Sherman - at some point I decided that I needed some PE bending "machine" and I opted for the Etch-Mate... It is a expensive tool, but as Mark stated, it pays itself in time and stress relieve. The parts come out great - we are talking angles here...
As for the round parts I still use a round toothpick - since it is make of wood it kind of gets easy on the PE part (raillings most of the times)
Hope this helps
Skipper
Good question for a kick-of post
Since 1993 (more or less) I started using models with PE, namely Verlinden midget subs, and since the PE parts were big enough, I used the blade of my x-acto knive and a ruler to do all of them - with success!
Only last year I started working in 1/700 scale with with my usual tools I might say that some hundreds of "colourfull words" came out while making the USS Forrest Sherman - at some point I decided that I needed some PE bending "machine" and I opted for the Etch-Mate... It is a expensive tool, but as Mark stated, it pays itself in time and stress relieve. The parts come out great - we are talking angles here...
As for the round parts I still use a round toothpick - since it is make of wood it kind of gets easy on the PE part (raillings most of the times)
Hope this helps
Skipper
Clanky44
Joined: September 15, 2005
KitMaker: 1,901 posts
Model Shipwrights: 934 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 04:31 AM UTC
Hi Rodger,
As important as the 'hold and fold' tools are. The essentials for me are the flat nosed pliers and the broad edged knife, most of my P.E. is done with these basic of tools.
As important as the 'hold and fold' tools are. The essentials for me are the flat nosed pliers and the broad edged knife, most of my P.E. is done with these basic of tools.
Grumpyoldman
_ADVISORJoined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
Model Shipwrights: 981 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:57 AM UTC
My one and only attempt with ship PE, was with a set for a 1/400 scale sub, one sneeze, and it looked like the conning tower was taken out by a 4 inch deck gun. I sincerely salute those that can handle these micro scale sets. 
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
Model Shipwrights: 3,509 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 01:39 PM UTC
I picked up a small Hold in Fold several years ago when they held the Nationals at Okla City in '03. They had a special show price so what the heck. Didn't use it that much until I started on those 350 ship rails. It is definitly worth the price.
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,821 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 07:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Rodger
As for the round parts I still use a round toothpick - since it is make of wood it kind of gets easy on the PE part (raillings most of the times)
Hope this helps
Skipper
Can you elaberate on the toothpick method for round parts? Me first attempt on PE might be on a ground vehicle, but I'm sure the basic technique is the same. There is one round item, a cooling shield for a machine gun, that I've been trying to figure out how to do. I guess for ships this would be for things like radar and such?
Gunny
Joined: July 13, 2004
KitMaker: 6,705 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,704 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 07:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHi Rodger
As for the round parts I still use a round toothpick - since it is make of wood it kind of gets easy on the PE part (raillings most of the times)
Hope this helps
Skipper
Can you elaberate on the toothpick method for round parts? Me first attempt on PE might be on a ground vehicle, but I'm sure the basic technique is the same. There is one round item, a cooling shield for a machine gun, that I've been trying to figure out how to do. I guess for ships this would be for things like radar and such?
Rodge,
You're absolutely correct, sir!
I also use various sized drill bits for forming round or half round shapes...the stuff bends VERY easily, and for instance, if I wanted to bend a half round for a radar shield, I hold the toothpick between thumb and forefinger in one hand, place the radar shield against the toothpick, held in place with a finger of the other hand, and just gently roll the shield against the toothpick, back and forth, until you get the proper radius...hope this helps ya some, mate!
Gunny
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 08:44 PM UTC
Hi Rodger and Mark and all 
Cut the PE lenght you need, put it over a hard surface (I use a square vitrified kitchen tile 10cmx10cm - glass is also very good) and then with the toothpick gently roll it over the PE back and forth.
This will slowly make the PE to curl...
Every now and then, check the "curlness" with the area you need to glue it after
Repeat process until you got it.
Trim the PE if needed (I also bought Tamiya PE scisors)
Et voilá!
Skipper
Cut the PE lenght you need, put it over a hard surface (I use a square vitrified kitchen tile 10cmx10cm - glass is also very good) and then with the toothpick gently roll it over the PE back and forth.
This will slowly make the PE to curl...
Every now and then, check the "curlness" with the area you need to glue it after
Repeat process until you got it.
Trim the PE if needed (I also bought Tamiya PE scisors)
Et voilá!
Skipper
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
KitMaker: 1,610 posts
Model Shipwrights: 566 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:20 PM UTC
I thought long and hard about getting the Etch-Mate for the PE on my Missouri, and if my LHS had one on the shelves I'd have bought it.
But since they didn't, I've continued to use make-shift stuff. For forming curved bends, I try and find something with the approx. radius, like a drill bit, paint brush handle or even a paint jar.
For bending, I still pretty much use a pair of tweezers. I have the kind that instead of a "point" on the ends, has about a 2-3 mm flat across the end, and the pair I've found to be most useful, the straight edge is NOT perpendicular to the leg, but at a slight angle. Both types are available in "certain" sections of most department stores. (Ask SWMBO :-) )
So far, I've been able to form everything with that, but it's all been 1/350.
I suppose that a forming tool could only make the task easier, but at least so far I haven't found that I simply CAN'T do it with what I'm used to without going crazy.
I have to believe though that if I ever attempt to do a 1/700, I'll either opt out of adding PE (yeah, right, like I could actually DO that!) or I'll need to upgrade to something beyond tweezers.
Tom
But since they didn't, I've continued to use make-shift stuff. For forming curved bends, I try and find something with the approx. radius, like a drill bit, paint brush handle or even a paint jar.
For bending, I still pretty much use a pair of tweezers. I have the kind that instead of a "point" on the ends, has about a 2-3 mm flat across the end, and the pair I've found to be most useful, the straight edge is NOT perpendicular to the leg, but at a slight angle. Both types are available in "certain" sections of most department stores. (Ask SWMBO :-) )
So far, I've been able to form everything with that, but it's all been 1/350.
I suppose that a forming tool could only make the task easier, but at least so far I haven't found that I simply CAN'T do it with what I'm used to without going crazy.
I have to believe though that if I ever attempt to do a 1/700, I'll either opt out of adding PE (yeah, right, like I could actually DO that!) or I'll need to upgrade to something beyond tweezers.
Tom
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I have to believe though that if I ever attempt to do a 1/700, I'll either opt out of adding PE (yeah, right, like I could actually DO that!) or I'll need to upgrade to something beyond tweezers.
Tom
Exactly my thoughts until I look at the model and said to myself - "It doesn't look right - what's missing??"
When you arae building a crane, yardarms or a catapult in 1/700 you will see that an Etch-Mate (or any other tool) is really your mate!
Skipper
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,821 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 12:43 AM UTC
So far I've picked up a number of PE sets, when I can get a smoking deal on them, but I haven't actually used any of them. The only nautical one I have is for the Tamiya USS Indianapolis. I've taken it out and drooled on it, but haven't attempted to use it yet. It didn't look TOO hard, but a lot of things you've never done are a lot harder than they look. One of these days I'll pull her out of mothballs and try out the PE. After the Bismarck for Dreadnoughts, the Yorktown for Flatops, all my various other started and uncompleted kits, etc, etc, etc. I wonder what it's like to only work on one kit and finish it, before starting another? 
I'm sure I'll some day pick up a PE bending tool. Maybe Hobby Lobby will start carrying them so I can use a 40% off coupon. (Yeah, like THAT is going to happen.)
I'm sure I'll some day pick up a PE bending tool. Maybe Hobby Lobby will start carrying them so I can use a 40% off coupon. (Yeah, like THAT is going to happen.)
Grumpyoldman
_ADVISORJoined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
Model Shipwrights: 981 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 01:32 AM UTC
Rodger, the Armory makes a small affordable bending tool, runs about 20 bucks called "The Gauntlet". I have one. Doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the larger ones, but does serve a purpose.
For curling I've always used drills.... mostly for making the perforated MG jackets on 1/48 scale bi-planes. But unlike Skipper, I always used a small hard rubber pad. In a pinch, folded up paper towel has worked. Just rolling each time with a progressively smaller drill bit until it became a tube. I found annealing works better than not annealing. Just don't over anneal, or they melt...... ask how I found out......
For curling I've always used drills.... mostly for making the perforated MG jackets on 1/48 scale bi-planes. But unlike Skipper, I always used a small hard rubber pad. In a pinch, folded up paper towel has worked. Just rolling each time with a progressively smaller drill bit until it became a tube. I found annealing works better than not annealing. Just don't over anneal, or they melt...... ask how I found out......
Halfyank
Joined: February 01, 2003
KitMaker: 5,221 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1,821 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 02:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I found annealing works better than not annealing. Just don't over anneal, or they melt...... ask how I found out......
Ok, now explain that? I know what annealing is, I think. Heating metal up. How and why do you do this with PE?
Gunny
Joined: July 13, 2004
KitMaker: 6,705 posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 03:14 PM UTC
OK, I can see the benefits of annealing, but I personally never have with PE...since I understand annealing as "the process of bringing the material to its softest possible point", it would make the curling of a part much more easier and uniform...gonna try this on my next mast rails, Dave!
~Gunny
~Gunny
skipper
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,070 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 04:14 PM UTC
The main issue with annealing is that if you make a "little mistake" your PE part will go to PE heaven, next to all those MIA on the Carpet Monster
I prefer to go gently and with some paciente (and practise + skills) you'll get there without getting your PE fired up
Skipper
I prefer to go gently and with some paciente (and practise + skills) you'll get there without getting your PE fired up
Skipper
Grumpyoldman
_ADVISORJoined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
Model Shipwrights: 981 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 07:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The main issue with annealing is that if you make a "little mistake" your PE part will go to PE heaven, next to all those MIA on the Carpet Monster
That is true...... I wouldn't recommend your first try at annealing is with that $75.00 photo etch set for that 1/350 scale motor boat.....
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