This is an extension of the same confusion that plagued me a year ago. The planes that came with the kit are far too long and I had to wonder about the shape. I cut them down to what I thought was the correct length but now they're too short. I tossed it in the corner in disgust and have pulled it back out tonight to maybe finish it. (Thanks for inspiration Ken) So, now I need some dimensions (in 1/350th scale) and the correct shape of the planes. To make matters worse, I found a photo in Clancy's book of the Topeka coming down the ways, obviously with the planes retracted but no way of telling where they're located..... So, they do exist right? The Topeka would have a bow plane? CoB?...anyone?

Hi Steve!
Glad to see that you're getting more time to spend back in the hobby, mate. . .the best man to help you out with this one is Al Ross, who luckily for all of us, has recently joined the ranks of MSW. If he doesn't pick up on this thread, I'd give him a holler, my friend.
Keep Modeling!
~Gunny

Hi Steve,
The Topeka has bow planes. Photos are hard to come by because they are both retracted and below the waterline when surfaced. The best chance to see them would be a shot in drydock. I will look around and see if I can come up with dimensions and shape but to be honest, this is a tough one.
Cob

Hey CoB, Thanks for the help. I later ran across a line drawing of the Miami in Clancy's book and noted that the bow planes were a bit stubby looking in the drawing. However, now my concern is how accurate is this. I also seem to recall some discussion last year on the number of VLS hatches or at least their configuration in contrast to the model's example. Is there a discrepancy here as well?

Thanks Mark for the welcome back. It is good to have a little time again to work on something, even if it is a few hours a week.

IIRC, the bow planes ARE little stubby things Not big manly ones like on my Albuquerque

I couldn't find any pics of the bow planes specifically, but at the site below, I found a shot of a 688I doing EMBT blow with the planes out. If you scroll down to that pic, you can clearly see how tiny the bow planes are. This doesn't help on the length issue, but on every sub with bow planes that I've seen, I've had to wonder "how the heck do they maintain depth with those tiny things?"

http://www.oficeandsteel.com/gall01.htm

Bow planes can be smaller than fairwater planes and still have the same effect because of their increased distance from tne center of gravity/bouyancy(think of a teeter-totter). I believe there are differences in the arrangement of the vertical tubes. I 'll see what I can come up with.

Cob

Thanks Clark and Cob.

Clark, I have to admit I'm sort of partial to the large planes as well, especially those on the sail. For some reason for me, it seems a more classic design.

Cob, I have it in my mind that someone once said that two of the tubes were omitted, perhaps one from both the port and starboard sides. Which has me questioning this, because as I understand it, they are equipped with 12 tubes. The photograph of the Miami that I'd seen had 12 tubes and in the same configuration as those on the model? Were these later omitted? Both the Miami and Topeka are Flight II 688s correct?

Steve, hopefully this will help. The Dragon kit I got has the bow planes and as far as I can tell they are the right size and shape and when you use the bow section with the tubes (hold that thought), there is an opening in the hull where they install. I'm working on my second build for the DDD2 campaign, and my intention is to photo document all the "corrections" I'm making to the kit as I build.

I'm behind, but this will perhaps get me back into it. In any event the attached photos may help. The first is the USS Hampton in drydock and you should be able to see the planes, although I'll admit it's VERY hard to determine their exact size and location. But I think the photo shows that the kit supplied ones are not too bad.

The second shot is of my first build and not only shows the planes, but also shows that I filled in two openings and added two for the missile tubes. (I added the third pair back from the bow in the center rows).

I HAVE seen what I think was a photo but MAY have been a high quality illustration, which shows the pattern that the kit uses. The book was the edition published just as the improved 688s were starting to be built.

I do NOT know if any boats were actually built with that arrangement which the kit uses.

What I DO know is that there are photographs of later boats (to include the two I'm doing, Columbus and Boise) which have the arrangement shown below.

(BTW there are some other additions I made to include 3 additional pairs of ballast tank vents, and some hatches as well)

Hope that helps.

All the 688s that are equipped with VLS have the same number of tubes. Those of us who ran around without them got more room for spare parts and gedunk (no VLS launch center taking up space).

Oh, and Cob, I understand the physics of bow planes, I just like having the fairwater planes. Other bonus for the dinky planes is it's waaay harder to get bow plane slap at PD than fairwater slap

Bonus for the fairwater planes is that you have a diving board for swim calls

Clark,
I broached as DOOW during an engineering exam. Propulsion was secured (I had no speed) and I was at PD so we could snorkle. The Captain saw me trying to direct the planesmen to get us back on depth. He walked up beside me and watched as I told him that I would get back on depth before the inspectors knew what had happened. He leaned down and whispered in my ear " The only way the inspectors will know that you broached is if they hear the fairwater planes slap the surface as you go back down. Just stay up here until the drill is over.

Rob

The major bonus to bow planes was to make under ice operations easier on the 688s . as well as increased high speed manouverability. Bow planes offered many more potential problems than fixed sail planes do. Their is still argrument among some as to which is better.. Boomers retained their sail planes for better "hover" performance etc.
I have the Dragon kit and have shown the kit to active 688 sailors at our USSVI Club and they all agree that the kits representations are almost spot on. I hope this helps.

But COB a smart inspector would know you were broached because your headvalve wasn't cycling while on snorkle....unless of course you were in dead calm seas... I would have gigged ya, but then again I am an old DBF AGanger,,, we know everything.. LOL Keep an up bubble shipmate.

At least they managed to get SOMETHING RIGHT :-) :-)

They're all fairly easy fixes, but there are a bunch of things that should be done to improve the accuracy. In addition to the incorrect placement of two of the VLS tubes, the shape of the sail is off in that the kit has it with about the same contour fore and aft in the plan view. The real sail is much more blunt and rounded forward compared to the aft end.

Tom

Walt, I'll take your word for it that the bow planes help with high-speed maneuverability, but honestly... How much maneuverability are we talking about here? LOL

Rob, That's brilliant! Your Capt was right, during ORSE we're all so busy (the inspectors more so, I think) that unless the whole boat shudders from a really good slap, not a soul would know I'm assuming that you (and your ship) successfully pulled the wool over their eyes Good on ya, I never enjoyed having NR aboard, ever.

We did have NAVSEA-08 hisself aboard once, and the Admiral was a funny funny man. We didn't relax any, but he told jokes the whole time he was in maneuvering

[quote]Walt, I'll take your word for it that the bow planes help with high-speed maneuverability, but honestly... How much maneuverability are we talking about here? LOL

Clark, being that I'm an older Submariner my only boat equiped with bow planes was a Guppy ( USS Bang). My other two boats were Boomers both of early vintage ( A3 Polaris). Both with sail planes.
Bow planes make a big difference in changing the boats angle of attack.. Similar to the effects of the stern planes . IE. on attaining an up bubble the stern planes will angle up..forcing the stern down and the bow planes will angle down forcing the bow up.. Now at the higher speeds the 688s run this is a marked difference between a almost central located sail plane set up. The rapid action to angle changes are much faster with planes on opposite ends of the hull. The skipjacks were the fastest boats in the US Navy until the 688s and the large sail planes and short hull they had almost had the same effect as bow planes.
Holding a neutral bouyancy while at low speeds and fireing missles ( Hovering) is much easier with sail planes..This is why every USN Boomer except one ( which refitted back to sail planes) has sail planes.

On more huge advantage to having bow planes is crash diving
the boat from the surface. Literally driving the boat under the waves using bow and stern planes together while flooding ballast for quicker dives.
This is a beni I experienced on the Guppy. Bow planes also leave much more space in the sail for spook stuff etc.

Smiley,
I forgot to mention earlier: Nice catch on the head valve cycling at PD! I wouldna thunk about it, but then I was more concerned about throttles at PD, or trying to shift the electrical plant to the EDG (you'd think they could freaking well build a diesel governor that doesn't get affected by roll!!! grrr). I always got along well with our A-gangers, they were good fellas, from the junior guys up thru the 2 firsts and their chief.

As far as crash diving, I can definately see that as an advantage for a diesel boat. For a nuke boat, I would think it less of an issue. I think our capability for changing up/down angle was decent, but I guess in a combat situation or avoiding a collision whilst at PD (emergency deep!), it'd be good to have the extra ability. How much noise do those planes make when they slide out? I'd guess there's some kind of buffer on the end of the out stroke, but still...

And like I said: When doing swim call in 13000 feet of water off the bahamas, it's waaaaay cool to have a diving board That was one of my favorite swim call locations, water nice and warm.... ahhhh

Yup BTDT in "The Tongue of The Ocean".. I remember a swim call there in 72 while on launch trials on the Lee ( SSBN 601).. Our boat looked like a turd floating in a pool of sani flush the water was so blue. We also posted armed shark watches... Those were good days for sure