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Murdo
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: May 25, 2005
KitMaker: 2,218 posts
Model Shipwrights: 214 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 11:23 AM UTC
Just a quick ramble.

Having been away from modelling for a long time (30 odd years) I got back into it by buying a Challenger 1 whilst on leave.

Snce then I've built a few tanks, aircraft and now I'm getting back into ships/boats.

I've just bought a 1/700 DML Premium Edition HMS Liverpool on Evilbay. Now I MAY NOT make a good job of it but through the knowledge of others willingly given on this site I KNOW HOW to make a good model!

Not the same thing but... Hey ho!

Long live this site!
skipper
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,182 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 03:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Rui,

Thank you for your response. It was very informative, and not personal at all. However, I do wish to take issue with a few of the things you have said, since I read them as justification for not making changes rather than constructive improvement that may or may not work.



Hi 1.90E_31

Most of the points your replyed make sense and I do acknowledge them with enthusiasm. These points are valid and I am certain that they will be applied by our News guys!
My only ressentment about your words is our "fear" for changes - which I don't agree
We were the "guinea-pigs" for the split from Armorama (and now every "branch" has a private domain, connected to the kitmaker.network) , amongst a few others.

Once again I thank you personaly for your inputs - good criticism and positive thinking will produce good changes.

Cheers,
Rui (aka skipper)
1.90E_31
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Tennessee, United States
Joined: December 24, 2004
KitMaker: 252 posts
Model Shipwrights: 89 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 05:31 AM UTC
Rui,


Quoted Text

My only ressentment about your words is our "fear" for changes - which I don't agree. We were the "guinea-pigs" for the split from Armorama (and now every "branch" has a private domain, connected to the kitmaker.network) , amongst a few others.



Let me explain the context of the word "fear" in my statement. I don't use it as you may interpret it in the literal sense. The splitting of this off from Armorama is a demonstration of the lack of fear MSW has shown. A better context of what I meant is the responses that have come from some about how many websites they visit, or stating that this is "your website" as a way of dismissing suggestions that I've made. The "fear" I refer to is the natural tendandcy of everyone (myself included) to dismiss things that may require them to have to do more than they feel is necessary. I understand that this is natural, and the responses from some were expected. However, since the original question was, "What should the Staff of MSW be working on more?", and these were my suggestions, the responses that were made by staff members are what I would define as the "fear" in my posting. I don't mean this as a slight against these staff members, but rather as a natural reaction to something new. This is the sort of fear that should be overcome so as to make this website better, that's all.
#027
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: April 13, 2005
KitMaker: 5,422 posts
Model Shipwrights: 5,079 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 06:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Let me explain the context of the word "fear" in my statement. I don't use it as you may interpret it in the literal sense. The splitting of this off from Armorama is a demonstration of the lack of fear MSW has shown. A better context of what I meant is the responses that have come from some about how many websites they visit, or stating that this is "your website" as a way of dismissing suggestions that I've made. The "fear" I refer to is the natural tendandcy of everyone (myself included) to dismiss things that may require them to have to do more than they feel is necessary. I understand that this is natural, and the responses from some were expected. However, since the original question was, "What should the Staff of MSW be working on more?", and these were my suggestions, the responses that were made by staff members are what I would define as the "fear" in my posting. I don't mean this as a slight against these staff members, but rather as a natural reaction to something new. This is the sort of fear that should be overcome so as to make this website better, that's all.



Well, let's got this route. You have a suggestion about news post. Let's get specific. How many news stories would you like to see posted a day?
blaster76
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Texas, United States
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
Model Shipwrights: 3,509 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 06:24 AM UTC
I think I can say this as being one of those guys who brought this site out of infancy. I remember when it was a part of Armorama and we made a big to-do when we finally got 100 posts. Guys like me, Rodger, Garry, and Rui made the site grow. Several more came in like Mark and Kenny. For a while we had Jeff Herne active, but I haven't seen him post in a long while. So onto the the topic at hand. I didn't put anything down as to what the staff could do better. I don't think that anythng they listed applies. Sure we need more features, more of everything, but what can the staff do about it. YOu can't publish what you don't have. If no one writes and does features, or reviews, no new products come out.....I've submitted two articles...they both got published. I am guilty of not providing a lot of pictures mainly because I have limited space in my gallery and as I love tanks too and enter tons of campaigns, need space to show the one or two pictures required to meet campaign requirememtns. So if I blow 20 spots showing one model at every angle and every step..... Oh here's an offer if you want more, send me an email and I'll take more and send them to you direct from my computer

So, as far as I am concerned, the staff is doing their job. We as "members" need to do ours. I recruit. I have brought in several new members. I activly participate in a model club that is primarily focused on armor, but I know they love to see my ships even if they call it "the dark side". On other sites I have made mention of what was going on here. Part of the problem like was pointed outis that we are considered the bstard child of Armorama and those guys only play on the two ship only dedicated sites. Of course, personal opinion...about half those guys we wouldn't want here because one thing we don't have on this site are the idiotic minutiae picking, poop flinging, flame wars that seem to go on. I'm a moderator on this site and never once have I ever felt the need to edit something someone has posted. This little thing of ours is made up of guys who truely are friends. I could see myself sitting down to dinner with Rodger, Kenny, Rui, Mark, or Dave . Going to a bar and swilling beer with several other guys like redneck, wildspear, modelguy2..
wildspear
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Michigan, United States
Joined: April 03, 2007
KitMaker: 960 posts
Model Shipwrights: 901 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 07:45 AM UTC
Blaster,

MMMMMMM! did I hear beer . This is a great place and I've checked the dark side (armor) section.....drama. I like this spot on the web for info and friends. I'm not going any where with my ramble just rambeling...LOL!

P.S. Dude I used to live in TX (Weslaco) so we'll have a party at your place then hop a plane and collect drinks from "skipper".
#027
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: April 13, 2005
KitMaker: 5,422 posts
Model Shipwrights: 5,079 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 08:08 AM UTC
Thanks Steve,
What you said means alot to me.

~Gator

Frank, while y'all are hopping around, stop by here and I'll treat you to some good cajun cookin'.
wildspear
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Michigan, United States
Joined: April 03, 2007
KitMaker: 960 posts
Model Shipwrights: 901 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 08:50 AM UTC
Gator,
I used to live in cajun country also. Over at FT. Polk. I think one of the towns there was Deridder? Sorry its been awhile.
#027
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: April 13, 2005
KitMaker: 5,422 posts
Model Shipwrights: 5,079 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:46 AM UTC
Hit the nail on the head - DeRidder. I live an hour south.
jba
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Rhone, France
Joined: November 04, 2005
KitMaker: 1,845 posts
Model Shipwrights: 502 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 06:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The biggest porblem I see here is the propensity of the members to insulate themselves. Most of the threads here consist of a few people (call them regulars) discussing amongst themselves inside information. That's all well and good, but there are others that wish to be part of the discussion but feel as if they are intruding upon a discussion they aren't invted to.



That's what i do think too, sorry Frank and Kenny but the 4 latest contributions to this thread has just been that, and -apart from the fact that there is just too few models here, it's also my biggest complain about this website.
But still I didn't move completely to modelwarships because there's obviously talent here too
Gunny
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: July 13, 2004
KitMaker: 6,705 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,704 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 09:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The biggest porblem I see here is the propensity of the members to insulate themselves. Most of the threads here consist of a few people (call them regulars) discussing amongst themselves inside information. That's all well and good, but there are others that wish to be part of the discussion but feel as if they are intruding upon a discussion they aren't invted to.



That's what i do think too, sorry Frank and Kenny but the 4 latest contributions to this thread has just been that, and -apart from the fact that there is just too few models here, it's also my biggest complain about this website.
But still I didn't move completely to modelwarships because there's obviously talent here too



I find this quote by "1.90_E" (and more surprising, Jean-Bernard) to be quite interesting, and also quite disturbing...this coming originally from a member who, we don't even know who you are!

Share some information about yourself, put some photos up in your gallery, participate in the forums in a friendly manner... I'm PROUD to say that our forums here are one of if not THE MOST friendly and welcome forum on the web as far as modeling forums goes (and I know this as fact because I hear the comment made often by new AND old members)... There are no flame wars here (much to the disapointment of the occasional member who tries to start them ), no down or double talk, and above all the common, nasty negativity that is found with most other forums out there...if you want a gripe and moan session, you're not going to find one on MSW...we're a friendly bunch of guys who gather regularly to discuss our hobby, and ANYONE who wishes to join in is welcome with open arms, that is, as long as you keep within the boundaries of common courtesy that we ALL here adhere to...

We all welcome everyone that patrols these waters to join in on the conversation, and the only thing that is holding anyone back from comments, is the member themselves...we have started thread upon thread, encouraging site members to stop lurking, and participate in the forums, even going as far as individual "get to know you" type threads. with little or NO participation, so to even re-quote such a preposterous comment is a complete and utter fallacy...

Try this!


C'mon now, just look at the threads here, folks, read the comments, then judge for yourself...we all bend over backwards to make all members fit in, but if you're not fitting in, maybe you should look inside at what the problem really is?

And as far as a lack of "Models on Display" here, well, we can't force you to send in photo's of your work...our mail boxes are quite large and most of the time, quite empty with member submissions...BUT, I will say, that as of this morning (6/4/07), there are some very bright things on the horizon for us here at MSW...don't touch that dial!

Very adamantly and quite sincerely,
Mark R. Smith
1.90E_31
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Tennessee, United States
Joined: December 24, 2004
KitMaker: 252 posts
Model Shipwrights: 89 posts
Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 01:38 AM UTC
Mark,

I would like to make this clear before I respond to your post. I am not trying to be combative in my statements, nor am I trying to start any fights. I interpreted the original intent of this post as being a way of soliciting suggestions as to how THE STAFF (emphasis meant to be demonstrative, not accusatory) could improve MSW. If this is incorrect, please let me know. I am not being accusatory, nor am I trying to cause problems. I am trying to give you an honest opinion from a person who is outside this "club", and would posibly like to become a member that participates more. If this is an unrealistic position to approach this from, please say so and I will be happy to desist.

Your comments make you the third staff member to state that the opinions I have expressed are solely the result of my lack of participation, rather than a suggestion about how the staff might improve MSW. If this is your opinion, then that's fine. However, as a staff member, shouldn't this opinion about MSW concern you, especially after another person expressed the same opinion and cited a specific example in this thread? I point this out not to be argumentative, but rather to point out that this may need to be addressed by the staff. If you wish for new people to participate, then shouldn't the desire to want them to participate be paramount? I agree with you that this site is very milquetoast when compared to other message boards, and for that the staff should be congratulated. But, if this is taken to the point where only certain members opinions are acceptable, then MSW will remain what it is now.

As for identifying myself to a certain level, that's an interesting question. I guess that my opinions are less appreciated since I haven't, but that level of identification is not required by the rules of this site. I have my reasons for not doing this, but I don't wish to discuss them at this point. This being said, it is interesting that a staff member has decided this point is a valid reason for discounting statements. I don't believe I have made any attempt to start a problem here, and as such shouldn't have this sort of evaluation attached to my comments, but I could be mistaken in that view.

I do not post this reply maliciously, but rather to point out what I see as a potential problem. My comments have been discounted by the staff members because of a lack of participation, and that's their right. However, since this dismissal is the result of attempting to participate, and trying to provide outside input into improving MSW, this is a very disappointing result. Please, do not interpret this as a slight against yourselves, but rather a disappointment. Thank you.
Gunny
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: July 13, 2004
KitMaker: 6,705 posts
Model Shipwrights: 4,704 posts
Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 02:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Mark,

I would like to make this clear before I respond to your post. I am not trying to be combative in my statements, nor am I trying to start any fights. I interpreted the original intent of this post as being a way of soliciting suggestions as to how THE STAFF (emphasis meant to be demonstrative, not accusatory) could improve MSW. If this is incorrect, please let me know. I am not being accusatory, nor am I trying to cause problems. I am trying to give you an honest opinion from a person who is outside this "club", and would posibly like to become a member that participates more. If this is an unrealistic position to approach this from, please say so and I will be happy to desist.



Ok, fair enough...
I'm sorry if I came across as accusatory, but when you're in the people business, which I am, you become a very good judge of character, again, which I am...all that I know about you is what you exhibit here, and quite frankly, you have a history of a combative nature, my friend, and not just here at MSW...so forgive me, but there's a certain type of internet forum personality that closely resembles this type of forum activity, known as a "troll", which is someone who places a post, usually in a combative or disruptive manner, with the only real reason that is to attract attention, and keeps checking back to see the activity...then after he/she is satisfied with the disruption, dissapears for a while...and your reluctance to "reveal your identity" increases these feelings...so once again, if I'm wrong about this, I'm truly sorry...I'm not a bad person myself (until ya cross me...then the gauntlet has been thrown)
I again, welcome ALL members of this site to participate in these forums, as long as the standards are adhered to, which are just common sense...but don't expect to be accepted too friendly unless you are friendly yourself...


Quoted Text


Your comments make you the third staff member to state that the opinions I have expressed are solely the result of my lack of participation, rather than a suggestion about how the staff might improve MSW. If this is your opinion, then that's fine. However, as a staff member, shouldn't this opinion about MSW concern you, especially after another person expressed the same opinion and cited a specific example in this thread? I point this out not to be argumentative, but rather to point out that this may need to be addressed by the staff. If you wish for new people to participate, then shouldn't the desire to want them to participate be paramount? I agree with you that this site is very milquetoast when compared to other message boards, and for that the staff should be congratulated. But, if this is taken to the point where only certain members opinions are acceptable, then MSW will remain what it is now.

As for identifying myself to a certain level, that's an interesting question. I guess that my opinions are less appreciated since I haven't, but that level of identification is not required by the rules of this site. I have my reasons for not doing this, but I don't wish to discuss them at this point. This being said, it is interesting that a staff member has decided this point is a valid reason for discounting statements. I don't believe I have made any attempt to start a problem here, and as such shouldn't have this sort of evaluation attached to my comments, but I could be mistaken in that view.

I do not post this reply maliciously, but rather to point out what I see as a potential problem. My comments have been discounted by the staff members because of a lack of participation, and that's their right. However, since this dismissal is the result of attempting to participate, and trying to provide outside input into improving MSW, this is a very disappointing result. Please, do not interpret this as a slight against yourselves, but rather a disappointment. Thank you.



C'mon now...
I wouldn't have asked for the comments if there were any such stipulations, mate...I asked for critiscism, and so far have received some very good comments, yours included...critiscism, yes, psycho-analysis, no thanks...you, and anyone else here are more than welcome on these forums, as long as you follow the basic rules...once again, I apoligize if I have offended you, but, I do have my reasons, and good ones at that.
Now if you don't mind, please keep the thread on topic, as we are wandering off...if you would like to further discuss and debate this matter with me, we have a fantastic pm system here...unless this method is not acceptable to you...

~Gunny
#027
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: April 13, 2005
KitMaker: 5,422 posts
Model Shipwrights: 5,079 posts
Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 03:25 AM UTC
Sir,
After taking some time to read this thread again, I now feel I can make a thoughtful response instead of some knee-jerk comment that won’t do anyone any good. Before I start though, I feel that I need to say that I’m trying to be accusatory or look down upon anyone. I live by live by two simple rules. Rule #1 – Don’t sweat the small stuff. Rule #2 – It’s all small stuff. My earlier post in response to your suggestion was an echo of a senior staff member. Why, because I didn’t want to make a knee-jerk post that would come across as hostile. Everyone has their opinion and that opinion is going to cause a different reaction in each individual that hears, or in this case, reads it.

Now, that being said, let’s discuss your suggestions.
Reporting on new kits. You brought up a specific instance in which a poster mentioned a new kit coming out. Mark commented on it and that was that. At the time of the post, and even today, there is no available information from the company’s website other than the name and scale of the kit. As a news writer here at MSW, I do look for news on other forums. But when I read about a new kit, I always go to the manufacturer’s website to build my article. If they don’t have anything other than name and scale, then there is nothing to report. So, unless I can get specifics, all I can officially do is to acknowledge the rumor and let people know that as soon as the company releases more info, I’ll post a news story.
The second suggestion mentioned by you and JB is “off topic post.” As it can clearly be seen, I am guilty of that. I did it merely as a response to a conversation that I am participating in. What can be done about it, I don’t know. I know that I personally do it because I look upon everyone here as family. That being said, does it make new people feel like outsiders and not want to post? Truthfully, it’s not my place to say because I’m not that person. How someone feels when listening or reading an ongoing conversation is just that, their feelings. Without expressing them, the participants in the conversation can’t know how they feel. And to make it even tougher is the fact that, as a participant, I can’t see their face or read their body language. To be honest, and your post are a perfect example, with the written word, the only thing a reader can do is to assume what the author’s emotions are. That is a double edge sword that has bitten me on a few occasions.
So what can we as members of MSW do about this? In my opinion, saying no off topic post would leave this place a little dry, so that’s out. Jim, the Kit Maker administrator, gives us a nice little emoticon just for off topic post. In hindsight, Frank and I should have used that with a smiley face at the end of our post. Knowing that this is a concern of a couple of member, I’ll use it more. That’s all I can do. Unless people like you and JB speak up and tell me that there is a problem with one of my post, I can’t fix something I don’t know is broken. And I believe this is the soul of Mark’s famous quote, “this is your website.” If you don’t like something or have some insight on a subject that no one else has shared, speak up. I have taken the lead from Mark to greet all new posters with a positive hello. Mark is great at that. But if you don’t say anything and go away with a “they don’t know what they are talking about” attitude, then we can’t address it.

To all of those reading this but are uneasy about speaking up, please do. I’ll be the first to tell you I don’t know everything. That’s why I ask the questions I do. Will Roger once said, “Every man is ignorant. Just in their own way.”

I hope this helps clear the air.

~Kenny
blaster76
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Texas, United States
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
Model Shipwrights: 3,509 posts
Posted: Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:22 AM UTC
To JBA and E19031;

Hey guys there is no conversation you are not invited to particpate in. Sure we all make little jokes and I especialy am guilty of inside jokes and comments (you ought see what happens when Tom Hataway and I get together), but that is what makes this site so delightful. We insert our personalities into the mix. It isn't someone saying what color are the decks of a US Aircraft carrier in 1944 and getting back a deck blue answer. We might say I painted my ship this color, then someone makes a cute laughable comment that we all enjoy. I emphasise laughable and not rude..

As to pictures, well I don't see many pictures on other sites posted in their threads, generally you have to click off somewhere to see their work. We have that feature too. Just click on the gallery section.

Quite frankly, I really don't see what you guys are upset about. 3 months ago hardly anybody really knew much about Frank (wildspear) I think you'll find him an extremely enthusiastic member. Hey our little club is always open to any and every one. So if you want to become a full fledged member, then jump in. Your choice as too how much you want to participate and to what level you want to reveal your personality is up to you. Some of us share our life outside of modeling with each other, tha is our choice. You can always skip that part and keep focused on the subject at hand; no one resents that. We welcome everyone with open arms and it has always been that way.
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