In regard to this scheme, .... "The PT was admirably adapted to a 'shark face' scheme because of the chine beginning half-way down the stem, and sloping in a curve to the water. So, we painted big teeth beneath this chine, and red for the mouth between them, and two evil eyes port and starboard, just below the guardrail. Back of the face, we finished out the hull in dark and light gray wavy lines - a sort of quiet 'Adaptor System'."
Did he not also mention that the 'face' was painted black? If so? The photos do not show that.
One other point?
Chip Marshall also showed me a photo of a boat in a similar scheme as seen on the 196, next to a tender and it appears to have been in theater as the boat that photo has roll-off racks, if memory serves; so it was not just tested out at the factory or at Melville ...
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to look for a job, ....
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TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 08:23 PM UTC
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 02:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Did he not also mention that the 'face' was painted black? If so? The photos do not show that.
No, he did not say anything about black. This is an irrelevant comment.
Quoted Text
One other point?
Chip Marshall also showed me a photo of a boat in a similar scheme as seen on the 196, next to a tender and it appears to have been in theater as the boat that photo has roll-off racks, if memory serves; so it was not just tested out at the factory or at Melville ...
Another irrelevant comment. The question specifically dealt with the scheme applied to 196 in the photos, which are clearly stateside. What colors or schemes were applied to 196 or other boats later is a totally different issue.
Al Ross
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 04:00 AM UTC
I forgot to mention that Chip thinks that it is the 196. And, Mr. Ross, respectfully, why is my other comment and/or question irrelevant?
I did read or saw something in print regarding that scheme having a black face, Mr. Ross. I forgot where I did see it, but I do remember seeing it. If it is proven that I am wrong, then so be it.
But, I don't think being called irrelevant, is called for or warranted, I asked a honest question, sir.
Perhaps, you could ask Chip to show you that photo, Mr. Ross and you could decide for yourself. If I was a little more posting savvy, I'd post it here, but I'm not.
Garth
I did read or saw something in print regarding that scheme having a black face, Mr. Ross. I forgot where I did see it, but I do remember seeing it. If it is proven that I am wrong, then so be it.
But, I don't think being called irrelevant, is called for or warranted, I asked a honest question, sir.
Perhaps, you could ask Chip to show you that photo, Mr. Ross and you could decide for yourself. If I was a little more posting savvy, I'd post it here, but I'm not.
Garth
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 02:35 AM UTC
This is what Mr. Swasey actually said about that scheme, from the same document Mr. Ross quoted from:
"big teeth beneath the chine" and red mouth, two evil eye port and starboard just below guardrail. Back of face-hull in dark and light gray wavy lines.”
I'll admit I may be wrong about the colors, however I don't think I am, based on what I was told by John Snyder in an email from a few years ago, I think it was either 2011 or 2012, ... if I may, this is a quote from that email from John, and we all respect John for his knowledge of WW2 paints.
"Well, in a sense, yes. I believe she was overall 5-OG Ocean Green, with 5-PG Pale Green “waves”. Deck should have been 20-G Deck Green. Nice pic—I’d never noticed before that she’d landed her aft tubes. Any idea what the lockers were for?
Cheers,
John"
"big teeth beneath the chine" and red mouth, two evil eye port and starboard just below guardrail. Back of face-hull in dark and light gray wavy lines.”
I'll admit I may be wrong about the colors, however I don't think I am, based on what I was told by John Snyder in an email from a few years ago, I think it was either 2011 or 2012, ... if I may, this is a quote from that email from John, and we all respect John for his knowledge of WW2 paints.
"Well, in a sense, yes. I believe she was overall 5-OG Ocean Green, with 5-PG Pale Green “waves”. Deck should have been 20-G Deck Green. Nice pic—I’d never noticed before that she’d landed her aft tubes. Any idea what the lockers were for?
Cheers,
John"
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 02:38 AM UTC
Swasey was there, John wasn't.
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 03:02 AM UTC
Interesting statement ...
Longshanks8
Joined: July 04, 2013
KitMaker: 430 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 04:05 AM UTC
Hi Arjan,
Excellent bit of scratch building, this really bodes well for the rest of the build.
Kev
Excellent bit of scratch building, this really bodes well for the rest of the build.
Kev
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 05:02 AM UTC
Arjan, I looked for stern shots of the Italian Vospers in I MAS E LE MOTOSILURANTI ITALIANE by Bagnasco, but didn't find any.
Al Ross
Al Ross
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 05:14 AM UTC
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 05:29 AM UTC
The only Vosper photo in this book is a rather indistinct bow on view of MS431 (ex-MTB405).
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 05:53 AM UTC
Then,
Try this ...
http://www.amazon.com/Vosper-MTBs-Action-Warships-No/dp/0897474120
Or, Mr. Ross' & John Lambert's ACF, VOL II or Lambert & Brown's ALLIED TORPEDO BOATS.
Garth
Try this ...
http://www.amazon.com/Vosper-MTBs-Action-Warships-No/dp/0897474120
Or, Mr. Ross' & John Lambert's ACF, VOL II or Lambert & Brown's ALLIED TORPEDO BOATS.
Garth
dlgn25
Vendor
Joined: June 17, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 06:19 AM UTC
By all means, I'll defer to Swasey--he was there, as Al says; my earlier estimation for Garth shouldn't cast any aspersions on him--any error was my own. As for the grays Swasey references, at that point in time they have to have been some combination of the USN purple-blues. Looking at how dark the red of the mouth and the underwater hull is, this was likely shot on orthochromatic film, which renders anything with blue in it as lighter than expected in the final print. Based on that, the base hull color could be 5-N Navy Blue with wavy lines in 5-H Haze Gray, or it could be a variant of Measure 14, with the base color of 5-O Ocean Gray and wavy lines in 5-L Light Gray. But those are just educated guesses on my part. Where ARE those Elco records when you need them?
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 06:38 AM UTC
Thanks, John, for the clarification and mini lesson on color
awiskerke
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 336 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 07:08 PM UTC
Thanks gentlemen for the feedback. It would seem that clear stern shots of the lend-lease Vospers are pretty elusive. I'm working on the rudder assembly now (lots of brass parts) and I hope to post some pics shortly.
Regards,
Arjan
Regards,
Arjan
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 - 11:19 PM UTC
Not a problem, Arjan ......................
awiskerke
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 336 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 27, 2014 - 11:26 PM UTC
I hope to make some pics of my progress on the rudder assembly this weekend. Yesterday I managed to locate some well-known pics of craft from the 7th MTB Flottilla. These pics were definitely made in Leghorn and not in Malta as some sources mention.
Fortezza Vecchia:
Caserna Tullio Santini:
The "Vosper MTB's in Action" booklet has an IWM pic on page 37 that probably shows one of the Annapolis craft. I noticed on the IWM site that there are three pics showing torps being reloaded (no. A 27453, A-27454 and A 27455). Unfortunately these pics are not available online. I don't know which of the three is in the Squadron book and I wonder if anyone knows how much it would cost to order prints (for non-commercial use)? Finally I can recommend an interview on the IWM site with commander Lieutenant James of MTB 378. He mentions the superiority of the American radar system. He also comments favourably on the changes the Americans made to the engine room of the Vospers and he mentions how quiet the American exhaust system was.
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80014437
Arjan
Fortezza Vecchia:
Caserna Tullio Santini:
The "Vosper MTB's in Action" booklet has an IWM pic on page 37 that probably shows one of the Annapolis craft. I noticed on the IWM site that there are three pics showing torps being reloaded (no. A 27453, A-27454 and A 27455). Unfortunately these pics are not available online. I don't know which of the three is in the Squadron book and I wonder if anyone knows how much it would cost to order prints (for non-commercial use)? Finally I can recommend an interview on the IWM site with commander Lieutenant James of MTB 378. He mentions the superiority of the American radar system. He also comments favourably on the changes the Americans made to the engine room of the Vospers and he mentions how quiet the American exhaust system was.
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80014437
Arjan
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 28, 2014 - 04:37 AM UTC
Hello Arjan,
If memory serves, sir ... I have a print of that photo from page 37, but I'm not at home. I'm at our vacation (holiday) house on Cape Cod while my mother is in a rehab facility (she's not doing well) near by here, and I don't know when I'll get to go back home. When I get back home, I'll look for it. You could have it if you'd like. No charge.
May I ask? Where did you find that photo of MTB-403?
Tim/Garth
If memory serves, sir ... I have a print of that photo from page 37, but I'm not at home. I'm at our vacation (holiday) house on Cape Cod while my mother is in a rehab facility (she's not doing well) near by here, and I don't know when I'll get to go back home. When I get back home, I'll look for it. You could have it if you'd like. No charge.
May I ask? Where did you find that photo of MTB-403?
Tim/Garth
Quoted Text
I hope to make some pics of my progress on the rudder assembly this weekend. Yesterday I managed to locate some well-known pics of craft from the 7th MTB Flottilla. These pics were definitely made in Leghorn and not in Malta as some sources mention.
Fortezza Vecchia:
Caserna Tullio Santini:
The "Vosper MTB's in Action" booklet has an IWM pic on page 37 that probably shows one of the Annapolis craft. I noticed on the IWM site that there are three pics showing torps being reloaded (no. A 27453, A-27454 and A 27455). Unfortunately these pics are not available online. I don't know which of the three is in the Squadron book and I wonder if anyone knows how much it would cost to order prints (for non-commercial use)? Finally I can recommend an interview on the IWM site with commander Lieutenant James of MTB 378. He mentions the superiority of the American radar system. He also comments favourably on the changes the Americans made to the engine room of the Vospers and he mentions how quiet the American exhaust system was.
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80014437
Arjan
awiskerke
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 336 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 28, 2014 - 01:39 PM UTC
Thanks Garth, I would appreciate the print. The MTB 403 pic is from the navsource site, there is also an intriguing pic of its bridge showing an Italian helmet and a crest of sorts:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05391.htm
Regards,
Arjan
http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05391.htm
Regards,
Arjan
Longshanks8
Joined: July 04, 2013
KitMaker: 430 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 28, 2014 - 02:09 PM UTC
Hi,
The crest appears to be a Coastal Forces Crest.
I've seen it elsewhere but the only reference I can find at the moment is
http://www.hongkongescape.org/Kilbee.htm
Kev
The crest appears to be a Coastal Forces Crest.
I've seen it elsewhere but the only reference I can find at the moment is
http://www.hongkongescape.org/Kilbee.htm
Kev
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 28, 2014 - 09:16 PM UTC
Arjan,
Hi ...
In a few weeks, send me a reminder to [email protected] and I'll look for that photo for you.
Tim/Garth
Hi ...
In a few weeks, send me a reminder to [email protected] and I'll look for that photo for you.
Tim/Garth
Quoted Text
Thanks Garth, I would appreciate the print. The MTB 403 pic is from the navsource site, there is also an intriguing pic of its bridge showing an Italian helmet and a crest of sorts:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05391.htm
Regards,
Arjan
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 02:11 AM UTC
The photo on page 37 is identified by A.J.D. North in Royal Naval Coastal Forces 1939-1945 as IWM A29009. The two boats shown are most likely from the 7th MTB, which was a mixed bag of US-built Vospers (MTB375-378) and transferred Higgins PTs (MTB 419-423). The boat next to the dock is a Higgins.
Al Ross
Al Ross
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 02:16 AM UTC
Arjan,
Again, send me a reminder and I'll see if I can find that print for you.
Tim/Garth
Again, send me a reminder and I'll see if I can find that print for you.
Tim/Garth
awiskerke
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 336 posts
Model Shipwrights: 333 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 06:05 PM UTC
Thanks for all the feedback gentlemen ! Kevin, the crest is indeed a mirrored version of the flying fish emblem. As promised some pics of my progress. As I intend to build a working (RC) model I have to make some concessions, especially below the waterline. The rudder assembly is still in a mock-up stage (nothing fixed permanently) because I have to do some detailing first and it's also wisest to install the propshafts before I glue the rudder components.
The transom will even get busier because I still have to add the push rods for the butterfly valves and the two brackets for the emergency tiller.
Regards,
Arjan
The transom will even get busier because I still have to add the push rods for the butterfly valves and the two brackets for the emergency tiller.
Regards,
Arjan
Longshanks8
Joined: July 04, 2013
KitMaker: 430 posts
Model Shipwrights: 390 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 06:59 PM UTC
Looking well busy already!
A work of art in the making
Kev
A work of art in the making
Kev
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
Model Shipwrights: 872 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 09:13 PM UTC
Arjan,
I'm sorry. But, I have to just say this ... I love what you're doing with this model! I can't believe the level of detail which you're putting into it ... I'm blown away.
I'm sorry. But, I have to just say this ... I love what you're doing with this model! I can't believe the level of detail which you're putting into it ... I'm blown away.
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