General Ship Modeling
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Rui Wanted an Update
skipper
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 03:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Your tips and words of wisdom still ring in my ears.



This turns me officially an annoying person

Well, Carl, I am glad that I could help, and that you are improving the next build in earlier stages (it always makes things easier).
I like what I see, so far on the PT Tender, and also found interesting for you to have two different types of PT-Boats.
Of course, some action is happening (the officer peaking over the railing, denotes that (nice touch, btw)) but you have to think of a clever one to depict.

Please keep us posted
Keep up the good work
Cheers,
Rui

EDIT: Hmm, the only thing that is bugging me (went back and looked at the photos again...) is the water. Was this just for the purpose of the photo shoot or are you going to use this? Have you considered using Heavy Duty Watercolor Paper for this project?
Give it a try (at least in this early stage)
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 03:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Very very nice pieces of work Those are WEM kits for those PT boats?



Thanks, Steve!

Yes, one of the boats is from WEM and it is the one that I will be going with for my diorama. I have to finish this one and then I'll have at least six more to go and they all need to be modified a little.

I plan to portray the Oyster Bay and MTB Ron 33 at Leyte in November 1944. Like the photo, below. The other boat is from JAG and is the wrong class of boat.

CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 04:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Your tips and words of wisdom still ring in my ears.



This turns me officially an annoying person

Well, Carl, I am glad that I could help, and that you are improving the next build in earlier stages (it always makes things easier).
I like what I see, so far on the PT Tender, and also found interesting for you to have two different types of PT-Boats.
Of course, some action is happening (the officer peaking over the railing, denotes that (nice touch, btw)) but you have to think of a clever one to depict.

Please keep us posted
Keep up the good work
Cheers,
Rui

EDIT: Hmm, the only thing that is bugging me (went back and looked at the photos again...) is the water. Was this just for the purpose of the photo shoot or are you going to use this? Have you considered using Heavy Duty Watercolor Paper for this project?
Give it a try (at least in this early stage)



Rui,

"annoying"? Never!

I am happy that anyone takes the time, like you do, to study and state their observations, suggestions, and recommendations. Always welcome!

Actually, this is the water that I am currently intending to use for my diorama. I have actually debated with myself and experimented with other plastic water sheets from Plastruct. This one is the same Tamiya Ocean Effect Plate that I have used in my 1/700 models, but this time I have air brushed the top of the surface, rather than just paint it from beneath. I have spent a lot of attention and effort in air brushing about 5 different shades of blue and green to come up with this final product. I would, however, prefer something less rippled, but I think this one would be believable.

Please look at my experiments that I posted on my Modelwarships.com forum thread for Barnegat Class AVPs. One of my concerns is attaching the model to the water and mending the gap between the hull and the water. I am used to using Liquitex in a syringe to fill and even out the gap. I know that it will blend nicely with the surface of this Tamiya plastic sheet. (and my waterline cug of the hull isn't exactly perfect, either)

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=35286&start=225

I will go to the art store and check out the heavy duty watercolor paper.

I have another question along these lines, and it is, "Is there a method of thinning Liquitex acrylic gel to make flow easier or more like a liquid than a gel?"
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 04:24 AM UTC
I plan all kinds of "action" in my diorama, Rui. There will be lots of figures on the ship and the boats and rigged out mooring lines for the nested boats, rigged out boat booms, welding cables, supply boxes and barrels, and an accommodation ladder ready for visitors.

Can you explain, further, what you mean by "clever", Rui?

I have already attached figures behind the main deck railings and a toredo on a trolley being moved to/from its stowage and the torpedo repair shop which is located aft and on the starboard side.





And here is another reference photo that I will be using as a guide for my dio.....

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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 04:48 AM UTC
Hi Carl

Thank you for appreciating my words, that sometimes can be no so nice, or what some modelers don't expect to (perhaps they are just waiting for a very nice comment).
Well, back to business:
1 - The Clever remark: Perhaps you can make some more "tricky" action, involving most (part) of the PT-boats, like a belt of sailors passing on veggies/small boxes - this would make a connection between all (most of them) the vessels involved, from the mother ship to the third PT-boat.
Of course other maintenance action is going on on the PT-Boats (only the lower ranks are scheduled for the veggie action), with weapons maintenance, some repairs on deck, Lt reunions and perhaps some guys chatting between PT-boats

2 - Watercolor Paper - this will be less bumped than your ocean effect plate (we have talked about it)
I think it would be appropriate for this situation and you can even make some light wave effect, similar to Jim Baumann's technique of watercolor paper with toothpicks bellow, in order for you not to have a completely flat ocean base. If you need I can place here the URL for Jim's tutorial...

On my watercolor paper bases (like the two latest, that you can see here) I use Canson Watercolor paper. I have bought the A3 block, which have 20 sheets. I have also bought a more rough in A1 size, but after experiments, I prefer the one from the block. Perhaps the big one is better for 350th scale situations. If you want I can send a big piece over to you, since I bought three A1 sheets How stupid can you get?????

3 - Matching the hull to the Sea Base: Using watercolor paper, you just have to make a dummy out of ordinary paper, mark the outline of the hull, cut and check. When satisfied, use it as a template for cutting the watercolor paper

Again, I hope this helps
Cheers,
Rui
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:03 AM UTC
Making Sea-water -using watercolor paper in 1/700-- PART ONE, by Jim Baumann
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:03 AM UTC
Dio's involving tenders and repair ships are excellent forums for depicting casual action. A humorous touch would be the wardroom steward tossing out yesterday's coffee!



--Karl
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:08 AM UTC
Rui,

I thought that, that was what you meant by "clever". Many of those things have crossed my mind. I like the "stores load" / "bucket brigade" idea. I did a lot of those when I was in the USN.

I"m definately going to get some watercolor paper and try it out. I would like that link to the turorial. I'm sure that I've seen it before, but would have to hunt for it, again.

Here is a water base that I have prepared from Plastruct's "agitated water" plastic sheet. It is intended for my future 1/700 harbor dio. Note the transition from the greenish water which is to depict that water nearer the shore, and the deeper, dark water farther from shore.





skipper
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Rui,

I thought that, that was what you meant by "clever". Many of those things have crossed my mind. I like the "stores load" / "bucket brigade" idea. I did a lot of those when I was in the USN.

I"m definately going to get some watercolor paper and try it out. I would like that link to the turorial. I'm sure that I've seen it before, but would have to hunt for it, again.

Here is a water base that I have prepared from Plastruct's "agitated water" plastic sheet. It is intended for my future 1/700 harbor dio. Note the transition from the greenish water which is to depict that water nearer the shore, and the deeper, dark water farther from shore.



Nice, we were on the same wavelength, but then english tricked me on some of the more specific terms

The link is the first post in this page, as you probably have already noticed

I like your water for the 700th harbor dio... but in the Pacific you can get even bigger changes of color/shades/depth in a small area:




these are from Somewhere in the Pacific Diorama MOD

Back to your harbor scene, I think it makes a more natural kind of water surface, this Plastruct's "agitated water" plastic sheet. apparently has the same texture of watercolor.


Rui
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:33 AM UTC
That is a perfect example and a wonderful dio, Rui!

The "action" in my dio may be limited to the poses of the various figures. These are L'Arsenal's figures.

I think that one advantage that the watercolor paper has over the more rigged plastic water is its flexibility and allowing for making ripples/waves/wakes from underneath. (i.e. the toothpick trick)

This is the first time that I put my Oyster Bay on the harbor dio base. I like it! I think that the size of the base better suits the dio, more so than the small one that I have been planning on. I plan about 7 PT Boats nested along the port side of the ship with maybe one getting torpedos loaded on the starboard side. I've even thought of having a PT Boat pulling in to find a place to moore. The whale boat will be somewhere in the water away from the ship and I had a thought of another small boat tied up to the accommodation ladder on the starboard side with officers coming aboard up the ladder.

What do you think about the size of the base for my dio?

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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:47 AM UTC
Carl,

First, let me say that I missed (a lot) these kind of discussions
Real Life Su**s!!!

On the size of the base for the Oyster Bay Dio, I think that it is about the right size... And now I will tell you why:
1 - The center of the action, read Oyster Bay and Elco's is a unbalanced situation, due to the specific nature of the ship involved.
2 - More action, situations, should populate the sea base, but without taking the attention of the main Ship (Oyster Bay), so I like the situation that you mentioned of whale boat near accommodation ladder, and also a PT arriving to the scene. This could be entering the dio, making the relation/connection on where is open sea
3 - Dioramas should have air (with the exception of my Floating Dock dio!!!! ), where things appear natural without being too cramped, neither too far away (see note bellow) and look empty.

This is why I think you got it right
Rui

Note on point 3: Although, as we both know, distances between vessels while at sea will never be portrayed correctly in model form... distances of 1000 yards or 2000 yards (one nautical mile) would make it a monster of a dio with just two vessels
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 06:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Carl,

First, let me say that I missed (a lot) these kind of discussions
Real Life Su**s!!!

On the size of the base for the Oyster Bay Dio, I think that it is about the right size... And now I will tell you why:
1 - The center of the action, read Oyster Bay and Elco's is a unbalanced situation, due to the specific nature of the ship involved.
2 - More action, situations, should populate the sea base, but without taking the attention of the main Ship (Oyster Bay), so I like the situation that you mentioned of whale boat near accommodation ladder, and also a PT arriving to the scene. This could be entering the dio, making the relation/connection on where is open sea
3 - Dioramas should have air (with the exception of my Floating Dock dio!!!! ), where things appear natural without being too cramped, neither too far away (see note bellow) and look empty.

This is why I think you got it right
Rui

Note on point 3: Although, as we both know, distances between vessels while at sea will never be portrayed correctly in model form... distances of 1000 yards or 2000 yards (one nautical mile) would make it a monster of a dio with just two vessels



Point 3 plagues us all, doesn't it?

I will keep these aspects that you point out, in mind, forever.

Here is a photo with about 14 PT Boats nested around the Oyster Bay. I don't know if I'll go this far. I'll probably get sick of buiding PT Boats after about the forth one.



Here is a possible layout, like we have talked about. I even have a plexiglass case ready for this base.

CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dio's involving tenders and repair ships are excellent forums for depicting casual action. A humorous touch would be the wardroom steward tossing out yesterday's coffee!



--Karl



NO! NO! Not the Coffee!! I thought that the wardroom's coffee from yesterday was what the "Blueshirts" got. I was a "Blueshirt" on subs in the USN. I loved the coffee! I'm still a two-pots-a-day man.

Neat idea, Karl! I'm going to remember that. The vegetable locker was located just inboard of the port twin 40mm mount, on the main deck. Garbage cans were temporarily located on the fantails of these ships, sometimes.

I've even had thought of a man spraying the deck with a hose or one painting the deck with a roller and bucket.
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:16 AM UTC
Here's another question on another matter.........

PE 40mm ammo racks are cool, but empty. Has anyone ever attempted to load up these 1/350 ammo racks? I covered them with canvas, instead, like I've seen in photos of this ship.



CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:20 AM UTC
Here is the small Tamiya Ocean Effect Plate. This is the size that they come when you buy them. (11.5" x 16.5"). The Plastruct sheet, which the wooden base was made for, is about the size that they come in, less a little trimming around the edge.

skipper
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:22 AM UTC
Looks good Carl, but I would put four PT-Boats on the mother ship and one approaching (where you placed it), but coming from the other side
(in the opposite direction from Oyster Bay)

(This on the 700th dio)

Rui
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here's another question on another matter.........

PE 40mm ammo racks are cool, but empty. Has anyone ever attempted to load up these 1/350 ammo racks? I covered them with canvas, instead, like I've seen in photos of this ship.



Carl, I would make them as you have, since making those ammo clippers would be a dreadful task!
It's a very clever way, but you can also leave some without the ammo to show the detail (you can use some paper tissue to simulate the unfolded canvas)

Also a note on the Tamiya Ocean effect plate... it is suitable for 700th ships - I think that it was created with this in mind (could it??)

Rui
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks good Carl, but I would put four PT-Boats on the mother ship and one approaching (where you placed it), but coming from the other side (in the opposite direction from Oyster Bay)

Riu



Very good point! I only have the four boats to play with right now. From what I can remember from my research, MTB Ron 33 had 8 boats in it during Leyte Gulf operations, but they lost one, thus I'm thinking 7 boats for my dio.

It has been a process of elimination in my search to find squadron info and units in the squadrons during this time frame, and which one(s) the Oyster Bay tended to. It is from this process of elimination from info on the other three AGPs and the squadrons that they tended to during this time frame (Wachapregue and Willoughby and Mobjack) that has lead me to depict MTB Ron 33 in my diorama.
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here's another question on another matter.........

PE 40mm ammo racks are cool, but empty. Has anyone ever attempted to load up these 1/350 ammo racks? I covered them with canvas, instead, like I've seen in photos of this ship.



Carl, I would make them as you have, since making those ammo clippers would be a dreadful task!
It's a very clever way, but you can also leave some without the ammo to show the detail (you can use some paper tissue to simulate the unfolded canvas)

Also a note on the Tamiya Ocean effect plate... it is suitable for 700th ships - I think that it was created with this in mind (could it??)

Rui



Ooops! Too, late now to show some of the racks exposed. Good idea, though. I used brown decal stripes that I made myself, and layed them over the racks and then applied Solvaset to them to make them conform to the racks. I then painted them with Navy Gloss Gray. I like this color. Its isn't gray, really, and almost olive drab. With a flat coat on it, it turns out pretty nice for the over all tone of my diorama, I think.

I'll probably use this Navy Gloss Gray on the other canvas items, like the railings and tarps that cover the PT Boat weapons. One of the PT Boats will have a tent or awning over a portion of it, I think.

I'm sure that you right about the 1/700 applicability for the Tamiya OEP, Rui.

I'm glad that we've discussed this trough. I have more courage, now, to pursue other avenues, I think.

One of my favorites quotes is (and I don't know who said it first), "I used to think that I was indecisive. But, now I'm not so sure." I love a good paradox.

Another is, "Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am Master of my fait and Captain of my soul."
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Looks good Carl, but I would put four PT-Boats on the mother ship and one approaching (where you placed it), but coming from the other side (in the opposite direction from Oyster Bay)

Riu



Very good point! I only have the four boats to play with right now. From what I can remember from my research, MTB Ron 33 had 8 boats in it during Leyte Gulf operations, but they lost one, thus I'm thinking 7 boats for my dio.

It has been a process of elimination in my search to find squadron info and units in the squadrons during this time frame, and which one(s) the Oyster Bay tended to. It is from this process of elimination from info on the other three AGPs and the squadrons that they tended to during this time frame (Wachapregue and Willoughby and Mobjack) that has lead me to depict MTB Ron 33 in my diorama.



You can always pest one of our members, T. Garth Connelly (callsign: TGarthConnelly), He is a very friendly person and I am sure if he can help, he will!

I have a Skywave Schnellboot/MTB/PT-Boat set, if you need a couple of 1/700 scale Elco's please ask
:)

Rui
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Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 02:17 AM UTC
Great build and blog, it is really a Dio tutorial for us newbies, great thread!

cheers
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 06:25 AM UTC
I'm experimenting with making wakes for the small boats on the Plastruct "agitated water" base. I was first concerned with the Liquitex filling the gap between the hulls and the base without getting gloppy.

I have applied a thin line of Liquitex, with a syringe, around the bottom perimeter of the PT Boat and then pushed it onto the water surface. Just a little oozed out and I was able to clean it up with a toothpick and a small wet brush. This also affixes the PT Boat to the base, permanently.



I then took the syringe of Liquitex and created basic outlines of the slow speed wake. This dries clear, which is the objective. All that I want to do is create a disturbance in the water to represent a slow moving PT Boat or whale boat. I think that this experimental wake is a little too, wide out from the PT Boat. For the real thing, I won't make the bow wake so wide.

I added some more Liquitex between the original outline lines and dabbed it with my finger tip. I also made a small wake sample for the whale boat.

This particular PT 200 class boat won't be used in my final diorama. It was an experiment to begin with, for camo painting and figures, etc. The whale boat isn't permanently attached, here, and will be part of the final diorama.





Although this wake is clear and looks okay, I'll try to air brush over it with the water color too, just to see what that looks like, and then add a glossy clear coat, too.





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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 06:33 AM UTC
Hi Carl!

Yes, I like the Liquitex experimentation! Particularly (I know it's hard to see) on the already dry, or almost image!
It can make some interesting small wakes and disturbance on the sea/water surface

I don't know if it is possible, but since this is a "test sea-bed", could you build up layers of Liquitex near the PT-Boat bow and stern?

Keep on the Good Work
Rui
CarlOmaha
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 06:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Carl!

Yes, I like the Liquitex experimentation! Particularly (I know it's hard to see) on the already dry, or almost image!
It can make some interesting small wakes and disturbance on the sea/water surface

I don't know if it is possible, but since this is a "test sea-bed", could you build up layers of Liquitex near the PT-Boat bow and stern?

Keep on the Good Work
Rui



Rui,

Yes, I'll try that. You mean like a faster spead wake at the stern and bow? (Since this is only an experimental base......no problem.)

I did a similar thing on my USS Hercules hydrofoil. I added a little more LIquitex, a little at a time, on that one.
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 07:29 AM UTC
Yes, Carl, that's it... The trick (or tricky part) may be to make it more edgy on the bow and more roundish at the stern, simulating the water on these particular areas (more problems than solutions, I know)
:)

Rui