Osprey is well known for their various series of small but informative books aimed at the modeler, wargamer and history buff. I don’t know about you, but their Duel series, launched in 2007 with volumes on the P-51 vs. Fw 190, Firefly vs. Tiger and U-Boats vs. Destroyer Escorts, has really pulled me in. I like the idea of books that directly address these kinds of match ups and I like building to those themes, to show in model form what they look like next to each other.

This naturally led to an idea for a campaign. To celebrate the 5th anniversary of the series in 2012, how about a Duel campaign? The idea would be to build two models to depict a duel as described in one of the Osprey books. You could build any two subjects as long as they fit the parameters of the book. Thus any USN carrier and Japanese carrier from 1942, not necessarily the specific ones on the cover, but not Essex and Taiho from 1944. For instance, I’ve always been intrigued by the similarities and differences between Akagi and Lexington. Even though they never actually met in combat I think they would qualify for the campaign if both were depicted in 1942.

As they’ve done several books on aircraft, armor and ships it would be a cross-site campaign and would run for a year (since we’re talking at least two models to qualify), probably from January 1, 2012 to December 31, 2012.

This one’s sort of been percolating in the back of my mind for a while and I thought it was time to air it out and see what people think. Let us know if you’d be interested and let’s see if we can generate something here!

Michael

Good idea. I like it very much. Plus it allows for a cross board campaign for aircraft, ships, and armor.

Well there have been some pretty positive responses so far, thanks all! A couple of modifications have been suggested:

1. A lot of people are signed up for multiple campaigns and the idea of finishing two models for one campaign may limit participation. Vance on AeroScale suggests that when a similar duel concept was done a few years ago, participants paired up and each built one side of the duel. This wasn’t my original concept, though I’m certainly open to it if you all think it would be better that way. One idea I did have about this was to allow started models up to a certain aggregate percentage. Thus (for instance) if the limit is no more than 25% started, the modeler could have each kit 25% started or one kit unstarted and the other 50% done. As I say, however, I’m open to suggestions on what you could get behind!

2. Duncan on Armorama asks about expanding past the Osprey series and allowing other combinations of vehicles which would fit the Duel concept but haven’t been done in one of the books (yet). He shows a picture of a Jagdpanther and an M10 (I think, sorry if I screwed that up Duncan!) My first take on this one is no, the idea was to sort of commemorate the series’ 5th anniversary, so the builds should be limited to subjects that have specific books in the series (though new and announced volumes would be OK). Again, however, I’m fully open to what the actual participants want to see!

Let’s keep the discussion going and let us know what you think! I’m planning on writing an email to Osprey later today making sure we wouldn’t be stepping on their toes by doing this and I’ll let you know what they say. They certainly should be OK, it seems to me that this would be a good promotion for their product!

Michael

The pairing up (two sides each building one half of the duel) would IMHO definitely be a way to go... in the aorcraft campaign it was a reasonable succes (although I was one of the drop-outs).

I think two major issues are in favour for such an idea:

- Many people are slow builders. Basically it provides a margin for interference of the real world.

- It could greatly expand the potential duels. It would be reasonable to expect someone to succeed building a 1/72 OOB duel. A superdetailed Tiger/Panther vs superdetailed Sherman (say with interior) would already be a bit more difficult. For all but very few a (superdetailed) 1/350 carrier duel would be a complete impossibility.


One major question though, from the POV of armour builders (primarily, aircraft and naval duels could run into a similar problem though):

- Do the two vehicles have to reflect two units that fought on the same front or not? In other words, is it possible/legal to have a German Tiger of say Grossdeutschland pair up with a 2nd Cdn Arm Firefly?

Wow, even more response! I seem to have touched a live one! That’s fine with me!

The ship and armor guys seem to be coming down solidly on the idea of a buddy-build, where two builders team up to do a single Duel build. OK with me, the public has spoken! Still, I’d like it to keep it open to the over-commitment types (me, me!) as well, so I’d say you can buddy up with someone or do two yourself.

Harm from ModelShipwrights asks about doing two vehicles which meet the basic criteria but weren’t in the same “theater”. His example is a Grossdeutchland Tiger and a Canadian Firefly. I’d say no on that, as the book specifically references the Battle of the Bulge, but I wouldn’t require any showing that the exact two vehicles actually faced each other in combat; as long as they fit the book’s coverage that’s cool with me.

Pat from Armorama was surprised at how many books there already are. The Osprey site lists 39 either released or announced http://www.ospreypublishing.com/duel/ It’s interesting to see what they have done (Seafire vs. Zero, Fw Condor vs. convoy) as opposed to what they haven’t (F4F vs. A6M, F-86 vs. MiG-15), but I’m sure they have to go with what authors are willing to write. Lots of options though, that’s for sure!

Keep those cards and letters coming! Based on the responses so far, we already have 11 people interested (2 ship, 4 air, 4 armor, plus me!) after only two days!

Michael

I do think expanding past the Osprey series would be fine. For example So Dak vs Kirashima. Or USN CL vs IJN CL.

For the most part builders will justify their builds.

I would possibly like Bismarck vs Hood or POW.

But, what ever is decided I will follow along.

Just had a look on the link to the Osprey Duels page. Some interesting topics. like the thought of the MTB Vs E Boat. Could do that in 1/700th, I/350th, 1/72nd, or even 1/35th.

Well maybe not 1/35th, the management at home wouldn't be too pleased with that idea. (Could even be sacking offence,)

The idea of a dio in 1/350th does spark a bit of inspiration. Another chance to play with high speed wakes.

Si

OK, I’m starting to firm up the rules. Please let me know if these make sense:

1. Entry must be based on a volume of the Osprey Duel series
2. Any scale, any type of subject as long as they’re from one of the books.
3. Campaign will run from 1/1/12 – 12/31/12.
4. Each entry must have at least two models (stand-alone or in a diorama OK).
5. Models must depict subjects of the type, time and place specified in the chosen book (though they do not need to be subjects specifically pictured in the book nor does the modeler need to prove that they actually met in combat).
6. Two modelers can team up to build one entry, in which case both models should be new builds. In this case, modelers are encouraged to use the campaign thread to find a partner but it’s up to the modeler to do so (the campaign leader isn’t going to team people up). If you’re doing it this way, be sure to indicate who you’re teaming with each time you post a picture (so I don’t get too confused!)
7. Alternatively, one modeler can do both models in an entry, in which case the models can be up to ¼ started in the aggregate (e.g. each model is ¼ started, or one model is unstarted and the other is ½ built. Something like that.)
8. Either method used in rules 6 or 7 will count as one entry and each modeler involved will get a ribbon.
9. Enter as many as you like and you can use different entry methods but each modeler will only get one ribbon and each model can only be part of one entry.
10. At least one in progress shot of each model should be posted in the campaign thread and at least one finished shot in the campaign gallery (if you’re teaming up, be sure to indicate in the campaign gallery which models go together.)
11. The idea here is to honor the 5th anniversary of the Duel series, maybe learn something, and have fun!

I’m trying to be as sensitive as I can to the fact that we’ve got a cross-disciplinary build going on while at the same time trying to keep some sense of continuity.

Also, please let me know if you’re actually “committing” to this campaign so I can submit it to the authorities. We already have more than 10 across the different sites who have expressed interest! Thanks to all of you for helping out!

Michael

Will need to get the book to see what E-Boats & MTBs are featured, but with that proviso, count me in.

Si

Count me in!

Bump!

Haven’t heard anything for a bit. Anyone else interested in this campaign idea? I have 5 people so far!

Michael

We're getting some great buy-in over at Armorama. I'd love to see more action here too, so chime in everyone!

We’ve had suggestions (on Armorscale) about requiring the builds to be to the same scale and possibly having two ribbons, one for the solo participant and one for teams. There’s also been a question about who get a ribbon if one team member completes their build and the other doesn’t.

On the scale issue I don’t think we should limit it in team builds. Quite aside from the near impossibility for some subjects (eg. the Fw200 and convoy) I don't want to limit participation or teaming up if I can avoid it. Since it's unlikely that two people teaming up will ever photograph their models together (they could be on opposite sides of the world!), I don't think they need to be the same scale. As long as they fit the subject parameters, I'm fine with builders going with their interests, scale-wise.

I also agree that as long as a team is constituted and some progress is made by each member, whoever finishes should get a ribbon even if the team-mate doesn't for some reason. I don't want to cause hard feelings between team members and we all know that life happens! On the other hand, the team member who doesn’t finish would not get a ribbon.

Here's the tough part. All the above applies to those who team up with someone else. I think if you choose to go the whole-hog method and do two models yourself, you should try to build them to the same scale (if feasible, see Fw200 vs Convoy example) and should get both models done to qualify for the ribbon. I know that seems like I’m penalizing the two-model participants (which I plan to be, personally!), but I think that logically it’s the right way to go.

I don’t think it’s going to be possible to do two different ribbons, but I’ll ask. Perhaps Gary can chime in here.

As always, keep up the great suggestions! We’re at 9 participants so far!

Sean Hadfield / Windysean armorama
Simon Heatherwood / RedDuster ModelShipwrights
Jim Adams / Goldenpony ModelShipwrights
Pedro Rocha / rochaped
Paul P /ppawlak1 Armorama
Jesper / SGTJKJ Armorma but interested in aircraft (P-51 vs Fw190)
Brian Kucks / bilko Armorama but planning an Fw200
Eoin Ryan Armorama
Michael Satin

Michael

And thanks to Paul from Aeroscale, we’re at 10! I’m going to go ahead and submit the campaign now with the rules and clarifications as posted, though I think I can still modify them if it becomes necessary.

By the way, I’ve gotten no word from Osprey about their opinion on all this yet. While Jesper has kindly offered to do banners, I’d like to hold off for the moment until we hear from them in case we want to use any trademarked/copywrited material in the artwork.

Michael

I will probably go with the USN cruisers vs IJN Cruisers. Getting another Osprey book is just something I will have to do.

The newest title E-boay vs MTB would be a nice one to do as well.

It would be nice if we could get Osprey to sort of "sponsor" the Campaign. If they did it would probably get more interest.

Hi Jim,

Yup, I am going to do E-Boat V MTB, using the WEM 1/350th kits, they are great fun little builds.

Si

How about a 1/35 E-Boat vs MTB Duel!?!!?!?

I know my wife would object to that one.

Hi Jim,

The thought of doing in 1/35th did cross my mind, but when it realised the "management's" likely reaction it decided discresion was the better part of valour!

The other point against that plan is, with my build rate on big projects I reckon that would 2-2 1/2 years work for me, at least,to build both boats in that scale.

But apart from that great idea. Would certainly look impressive, how big would the base need to be?

Nah, i will stick to 1/350th, but no reason why someone else can't put the big boys in is there?

Si

Simon,

Other than the lack of an MTB in 1/35. Maybe Italeri is listening? That WOULD be fun!

Michael

Hi Micheal,

A Vosper in 1/35th is due from Italieri late this year / early next. I do intend to aquire one, but when it would be built is another matter.

I will stick to 1/350th, I want to play some more with high speed wakes, and I can get decent seperation on the models & (I hope) create a nice little diorama.

Si

Si,

That figures! I have the PT and S Boat but the Vosper is what I've really wanted. Unfortunately, my modeling budget has dried up. Nuts! Guess I'll just have to live with the Airfix kit for now

I'm sure your 1/350 diorama will be great!

Michael

This is great! More people continue to express interest:

Sean Hadfield / Windysean armorama
Simon Heatherwood / RedDuster ModelShipwrights
Jim Adams / Goldenpony ModelShipwrights
Pedro Rocha / rochaped
Paul P /ppawlak1 Armorama
Jesper / SGTJKJ Armorma but interested in aircraft (P-51 vs Fw190)
Brian Kucks / bilko Armorama but planning an Fw200
Eoin Ryan Armorama
Michael Satin
Paul / ludwig113 Aeroscale
Remco / 4-BO-Green Armorama but looking at a La-7
Jeremy H / vonHengest Armorama
Matt Smith / BigSmitty Armorama
Phill / WARDUKWNZ Armorama

And we actually have two teams already:

Sean and Jesper: P-51 vs Fw190
Duncan and Jeremy: Tiger 1 vs Firefly

Interestingly, the first two Duel books! Coincidence? Maybe…

Anyway, I’m still not able to formally submit this as a Campaign since Gary Kato tells me that the software is down at the moment. I’m pretty confident it will be approved at this point though, so feel free to act like we’re a go and start pairing up if you’d like, I’m doing my best to keep track of everyone.

This does lead to a small issue though: It’s getting kind of difficult to keep track of (and post on) three separate threads on three separate sites. Should we pick one (Aeroscale, Armorama or ModelShipwrights) and use that as the “official” thread? As I think about it, probably not yet since I want to keep it as open as possible to new members finding us and joining in, but it’s something to consider once the campaign actually starts.

Meanwhile, I haven’t heard anything from Osprey yet. I’m just a little leery of actually asking them for prizes or anything, I don’t want to turn this into a contest. I’d rather keep it on the “amateur” level so we can all do this for fun. But let’s see if they want to get on board and, if so, what (if anything) they want to do. As always, I’ll keep you all posted! Thanks for the lively start!!

Michael

All,

We are official (thanks Gary!) Sign up here:

Campaign Signup

Michael

I am signed up, MTB Vs E Boat will the the build. 1/350th Dio

I am off to aquire a copy

Si

I am in as well.

OK, I’ve heard from Osprey. They seem to be very open to us doing this and have given us their blessing. They’ve also indicated that they would be happy to publicize it on their blog as well. They did tell me that they’re (understandably) a little bit touchier about the idea of using their logo if we want to put it in the banner and/or ribbon. What they’re asking is that if we do use it we include the name “Osprey” and they would like to see any proposed design to see if they have a problem with it.

I, for one, don’t have any problem with their requests and will be happy to forward them whatever we come up with. As for designing the ribbon and banner, this word was what I was waiting for. Now that we have some parameters from Osprey, I’m officially asking if anyone has ideas about how the banner and ribbon might look. Let us know what you’ve got and we can see what we like, then I’ll send it off to them.

Thanks, sounds like we’ve got a great start on this one already!

Michael