Howdy All,

As I've said in the past. All it would take to lure me to the Warship side of the site would be some nice 'Nam era modeling material, namely in the form of ships and boats from the Mobile Riverine Force, or more affectionately known as the Brown Water Navy.

Even though I am patiently waiting for (I think) Greatmodels to release their 1/35th scale Monitor kit. I have been doing the 'mental math' of building an ATC watercraft, or 'Tango' boat as used by the BWN in the Mekong out of the Trumpeter LCM (3) kit that I recently got in trade from our good HeavyArty.

So, I have been, and still am, searching for references, diagrams, schematics, etc, etc, regarding the transformation.
My main focus (as far as scratching is concerned) is the main manned command/superstructure construction.

I am requesting from all of you, any and all information you might know of or have come across in your web travels that might help me in this 'quest'.
I would also like any and all opinion on my newest project......


Many thx for taking the time to stop by.

Tread.

And for those who may not know what type of vessel I'm talking about.......here's a pic of one rigged as a helo pad....



Here's another (overhead) shot of three Tango boats at dock...


For those who might be learned in 'salty' matters, part of what I'm looking for is the difference's between the LCM (3) (the Trumpeter kit), and the LCM (6) what the ATC or 'Tango' Boat was based on?........?........?
Anybody?


Tread.

Howdy Ladies and Gents,

To answer my own question. The LCM (6), which the Mobile Riverine Force 'Tango' Boats were based on, are in actuality the W.W.II LCM (3) boat with six (6) feet added to the 'tank' deck to increase the floatation ability of the craft to accept the larger (40-Ton) load of the Sherman tank plus personnel.
Otherwise the structure itself is identical.

So....to turn my recently acquired LCM (3) kit into an LCM (6) so that I can begin it's transformation into a 'Tango' Boat, I just need to bash the kit a little and add approx. 6' (scale) to the middle, or 'tank' deck of the hull.
Great. That's answered.

Now I just need some reference photos of the command superstructure, and pics of what it looked like down in the 'tank' deck underneath the canopy/helo pad.
Good luck, right?

Tread.

Hey Gordon,
Your a one man forum here! LOL, this is all new to me. but I'm liking it! I tell you what I'll do, I'll do some searching on my own and see what I can turn up. Thats an interesting craft indeed!

Cheers,

Garry

Gordon,
I thought about doing the same with the LCM(3) kit, that is why I got it. I may just build it from scrath though. We shall see. For some referances, check the below sites. You may have these already.

Riverine Force Productions:
http://www.geocities.com/riverine66/index.html
This is Jack Carrico's excellent site with lots of photos of his scratch-built boats. He is also the one coming out with the resin boats as well.

Riverine boat referance:
http://www.rivervet.com/boats.htm

Hope these help.

Happy modeling, let us know how it turns out. Glad I could help with the kit.

Howdy fellas,

Thx for piping in Garry, good to hear from someone from the Warship shide of the site . Your input would be very appreciated, since your input in regards to Warships in the past has been quite helpful indeed.

Gino said:
"...I thought about doing the same with the LCM(3) kit, that is why I got it. I may just build it from scrath though. We shall see...."

Well then, I count myself at an advantage being associated with an award winning mind such as yourself.
I have been wanting to build one of the BWN boats for quite sometime, but didn't want to hand over all the sheckles to get one from Nimix.
As you know from our previous discussions on the matter, I think we have both been in contact with the talented Mr. John Carrico in regards to his scratchbuilding endeavors. He has indeed been able to acquire some very precise and accurate plans/drawings detailing the BWN ships.
It is these plans/drawings that I would be most grateful to get my hands on. Reason being, is that working only from photographs is quite dangerous to what hair I have left on my head.

regards,

Tread.

O.K.....from my studies of the photos I have been able to find on the web regarding the difference's between the LCM (3) hull and the LCM (6) hull, the extension of the hull that was done in order to increase it's 'floatability' index was carried out in the 'belly' of the tank deck.
Below are pictures of the Trumpeter LCM (3) hull showing the penciled-in mark where I will cut the hull in two, and add approx. six (6) feet of (scale) hull & deck extension.

Here is the hull turned upside down showing the proposed cutting line....



This mark (fortunately) coincides with both the most level portion of the hull bottom, and comfortably (?) betwix the leading edge of the propeller fairings and the bow centerline buldge.

In this photo you can more clearly see the interior hull support spars(?). My proposed cut line falls directly in front of the forwardmost center support crosspanel.



Tread.

P.S. All those who think I'm plum craaaazy say "Aye!" :-)

Y'all ain't the only ones plannin' one!!!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Howdy matt,

Really?....that's more than kewl.
Well, just like my M8A1 Cargo Tractor 'Mud, Sweat & Gears' entry, if you desire you can follow along and chuckle at my expense watching me writh in anguish trying to make it all work.

And, just to provide you fodder for your humour, here's a couple more photos of my progress........

Here is a pic of the LCM (3) hull seperated into two sections...
I was able to perform a nice clean cut along the 'spar' lines.

In this photo I have positioned the new, scratch built, extended section of hull between the original pieces so you can see how much is needed.

I will be adding a crosspanel support piece that basically mimics the original cast kit parts.

Here are the three pieces sandwiched together viewed from the top.

This shows the new section in it's temporary position so you can get an idea of how much the hull overall length is affected.
And, just for the record, the true (to scale) added section is not six (6) scale feet. It is in fact, 7.25 feet long. This based upon a more accurate measuring of the overall beginning hull length, and the new 'target' hull length.

Finally, here are the same pieces viewed from the right side...

Hopefully as you can see, I have spent the time to make the new section line up as close as is possible so that any real 'putty' work is virtually eliminated.......{fingers crossed}

We now have a new version of the (supplied) Trumpeter LCM (3) hull in it's new configuration as a larger and longer version, or the LCM (6) which, contrary to the box art, could truly be sporting a Sherman tank exiting it's hold.. From this point I can build it as a WW II configured LCM (6), or continue towards the slightly more modern 'Nam version with the ATC, or 'Tango' Boat 'accoutremont'.....

Tread.

Gordo,
Looking good, keep us posted on your progress.

Tread before you go any further there is an artical in TMMI November issue about building the LCM (3). There is a way to skin the boat in a metal tape with evergreen strip ribs you may want to see. It would hide the exterior joints completely! Just a thought!

Look Ma No Turrets LOL.

Howdy fellas,

Yep...I'll keep you posted. Tomorrow I should be able to glue all the hull pieces together.

to Tiger101:
Thx for your input. I will have to stop by my LHS tomorrow and see if I can find that article. If it's what I think it is, it's a method I've already tried (kinda) on a sailing ship project some moons ago. But my interest is definitely 'piqued'.

Tread.

Gotta spend some time on my "Move It!" entry tomorrow as well....

Let me know if it will work for you. I am interested in building this beast as well. Any tip you can use is a good one.

I am following this with a great deal of interest - a few years ago at a model show here, I got to meet a Spanish modeller who was somewhat obsessed with the whole subject and had built 2 of the NIMIX monitors. Since then I have been 'skimming' the surface a bit . This thread and one or two others have really raised my interest threshold considerably....

The LCM (6) conversion has started me thinking - I have a TRUMPETER LCM (3) sitting there waiting for some inspiration - maybe now I've found it..

The pity is, that DRAGON didn't release the LCM (3) in 1/35th. They did it in 1/72nd and actually have done a LCM (6) by mistake -if they had done it in 35th they would probably have made the same mistake giving us 2 LCM (3)s AND an LCM (6)...Makes ya think...Jim

Don't forget, these BWN boats had RPG armor on them...... made of rebar spaced about 2 feet off the hull!!!!

Howdy fellas, and Good Mornin'!

Thx to you for 'tuning' in here at Tread's BoatWerk's

I'm mighty glad to see some people stopping by and taking some interest in my 'slice and dice' show. And as I've already said to a few of you off-thread, this project is growing a life of it's own.....

I began this project as an attempt to finally build a subject matter that has been at the forefront of my mind for quite sometime. The boats and ships of the Brown Water Navy .
I have always had a love/hate relationship with the sea. In a nutshell, I have always loved the ocean, but have always been terrified of it at the same time. To give you insight, the recent summer film entitled 'Open Water' was a graphic illustration of what I fear the most when it comes to the sea.
So, my love for things 'salty' has mainly focused on what I have come to call 'Land-lubber' vessels. In other words, ships that usually stay pretty close to the shore, and interact with it on a daily basis. PT Boats, German E Boats, assault craft, etc, etc.
Now, add to that the sheer diversity and incredibly intriguing day-in and day-out role of the Moblie Riverine Force along the Mekong and other waterways, plus the fact that these vessels were born from old WW II era assualt ships and well.......you've got some mighty enticing subjuect matter as far as this 'Land-lubber' is concerned!

But, back to the thread.
After much investigation, and ref-surfing, and all around kickin' in the corners I've come to the conclusion that the 1/35th scale LCM (3) that I started off with, is a decent 'core' kit that can be transformed into several of these honourable BWN vessels. Mainly because both the 'Tango' boat, and the heavily armed 'Monitor' boat were based on the lengthened LCM (3) hull which was redesignated the LCM (6).

The 'Tango' boat maintains most of the overall original hull configuration of the WW II assault craft, with the most obvious addition of a revamped (and moved forward) wheelhouse/command superstructure. The refitting of either a small flight deck that served helos, or the addition of ballistic nylon 'tent' covers being the other major alteration made to the 'Tango' vessels.
The 'Monitor's', as well as their more 'fiery' brothers the 'Zippo' boats were also based on the lengthened LCM (6) hull. These ships had the upright portions of the 'cargo' section, or 'tank' deck removed above the deck line, and then sealed the deck pretty much straight across (more like a normal motor boat or PBR configuration) in a more low profile appearance, and then removed the front gangplank and added a more angular 'nose' to the vessel to aid in both overall speed and penetration. All manner of armament was added above (and below) decks to outfit the Monitor as a 'Gunship', and it also retained almost the identical armoured wheelhouse/command superstructure.

Now....I say all of this to try to illustrate that from the original 'core' LCM (3) kit, both of these very cool vessels can be built. I am at this moment considering building my project with a 'Conversion' kit in mind. Not sure if that would be worth the effort though, since I feel like I'm counted amoungst just a few who like this type of thing.......
Maybe I'll contact the Vietnam Modeler sites and see what they say, and how it's received over there as well.

Tread.

Oh......and more 'in-progress' to come.......

Tread,
I think the conversion kit would be a geat idea. you may find there are quite afew out there who would be interrested, but aren't confident enough to build it themselves from scratch.

Howdy Gino,

Thanks for the words of encouragement, they help. And since your word is 'gold' with me, it will definitely affect my decision.

Tread.

Just a couple of observations here...

1) This 'mesh' type thingy - this butts into something else I've been thinking about, the new additional RPG protection on the British Warrior...

29 Any ideas as to how to simulate the 'mesh-type thingy'? One of the weaknesses in the NIMIX monitor, was that they all had to be replaced in the kit (or so I was told) buying about 9000 packets of Evergreen strip... Jim

Howdy again fellas,

The 'stand-off' armour both you (jim) and matt are talking about happens to be one of my favourite added features of the BWN boats. And this isn't the first time I've heard that same comment in regards to the Nimix kit offering.

It is made up of repetitive, horizontal rows of standard rebar that was welded together in (again) repetitive ladder-like applique sections that were mounted approx. 18" (as reported by a crewman who manned one of these boats) away from, or in a 'stand-off' position from the sides of the hull, and the wheelhouse/command superstructure.
These added-on pieces of armour were definitely field-expedient, and were created, built and installed either while in a refit, or in some cases even dockside.

I have seen a couple of examples of this 'bar armour' on one-offs that looks acceptable. The men who built these out of locally available rebar (probably snitched from the SeaBees) did a pretty darn good job of welding each rung of the 'ladder' in a more or less equidistant placement.
I have been working out a jig in my mind to recreate this type of applique armour since it was such a dominant part of the visual impact of the boat itself.
I'll let you know what I come up with........

Tread.

Dang Tread! How many projects you got going? I'm still waiting to see the Composite Sherman you cut in half and now you're cutting LCMs???

Hello All!

I have been following this post and the evolution of it!
I might say that you have a lot of courage - go for it!!

as a reading suggestion, mainly because of multiple view pics of ATC's go for Squadon Signal's "RIVERINE" A pictorial history of the BWN in Vietnam
ISBN 0-89747-163-6

I also have the Trumpeter LCM, and appart from the dimension issue, that you so well mentioned, the main difference that i've noticed (in a quick look) is the flat forward ramp (on the BWN they are flat, without the bulged protection) and the huge amount of stressed skin!

If you'll need more help just shout

Go for it!!

Skipper

Just to confirm you are doing right see the small picture in the middle and the text on the right.
Good work


Bye
Lagumiles

Howdy guys,

to Shermies: Yep!....I've got another project going.
"...and now you're cutting LCMs???..." I do like to cut 'em up don't I? I'm glad to see you stopped by to rib me about things, I was beginning to think I'd escaped your 'no-humour' policy over here on the Warship side of the site........but apparently 'no joy' huh?......... :-)

to skipper: Thx for stopping by as well. Since I was getting almost no attention from you 'Warship' guys (that is, with the exception of my mate garrybeebe), I was afraid that maybe the "Brown Water" reference's were scaring you guys away and making you run for the cleanser! :-)
Just kiddin' ya skip!

Thx for the suggestion of Jim Mesko's book on the Riverine Force, but I know the book quite well. Unfortunately Mr. Mesko did not include a schematic of any of the boats (probably because he entitled the book a "pictorial" history, and not a "schematic" history...).
I can pull my alterations armed only with photos, but it becomes quite the exercise trying to mentally balance between one photographic viewpoint and another.
I'll figure it out.
As to your further observations of the Trumpeter LCM kit....yes, the dimensions are in fact 'off'.....no worries, was able to extrapolate the correction needed. Fortunately it fit pretty well within the moulded in hull spars (still not sure if that's the right terminology or not).
And yes, the 'buldge' you speak of (the kinda diamond shaped convex protrusion on the drop ramp) is not on the 'Nam Tango's, Monitor's, ATC's, or CCB's.
Your reference to "...the huge amount of stressed skin!..." is unclear to me though.......

Tread.

Tread I will post pics of my monitor on the deckrail this weekend....