Guys
I was looking at the Trumpeter Liberty ship kit today and noticed that the kit has 2 5" guns, one in the bows and one in the stern.
Now does this mean that some were used as warships by the US navy?
It was always my understanding that Merchant shipping was only allowed to have a "defensive " armament, ie; no forward firing main guns. If anyone can shed some light it would be greatly appreciated.

Pete

That was the rule, however it's my understanding it was conveniently ignored because the enemy learned to attack from the bows.
Tom

How would a defensive gun be placed? Weren't they almost always only used to shoot at aircraft? Never heard of one taking on a U-boat, though with a 5 inch gun they sure could ward off a surface attack.

If memory serves me correctly, it meant no large guns firing forward of the beam.

Pete

I believe that it was common practice for merchant ships to carry a least one deck gun for a pretence at defence against surfaced U-boats etc. Terribly bad form to be sunk without at least one shot fired at the enemy. Seriously, it was DEMS (Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships) ships in the British Merchant Navy together with well-armed 'Q' ships that persuaded U-boats to make the majority of their attacks submerged even when the target wouldn't normally warrant the expenditure of a torpedo. Other nations then took up the habit - and Liberty ships were designed from the start for the trans-atlantic convoy route (according to my references, which I admit are pretty sparse regarding shipping).

I was watching Mail Call Saturday (Last night) and they had a segment about the Liberty Ships and it showed some footage of one of the ships and it had a gun on the bow and the stern along with several anti aircraft guns. They used the 2.5 inch guns to defend themselves from surfaced Subs. The guns were crewed by the US Navy personnel and not the merchant seamen.

I believe that this is how the Allies got araound the question of arming Merchant vessels. By using non-merchant marine gun crews the ships remained basically 'civilian'. The British DEMS ship's guns were crewed by army gunners.

I would be curious to know if anyone has purchased one of these yet. If so, are they a nice kit ? I'd like to pick one up.

Very interesting discussion here Mates!

The armament issue was "surrounded" as Dave Cox so well mentioned - at some period, there where no more "Gentleman War", by both contendants...

Regarding the Trumpeter Liberty Ship, according to some reviews I've read, it reproduces S.S. Jeremyah O'Brian - she's the only Liberty still running - in San Francisco Bay area.
A little retrofitting is necessary, also, if my memory serves me well

It would be a good subject to honor the Allied merchant men of WWII

Skipper

Just so you know Liberty ships could, and did, take on much better armed ships.

"Action in the South Atlantic

One of the most dramatic acts of heroism occurred Sept. 27, 1942, in the South Atlantic on the Liberty ship SS Stephen Hopkins. She came upon the heavily-armed German raider Stier, disguised as a neutral ship, and her escort, the Tannenfels. When the Hopkins refused to surrender, both vessels shelled her.

The Hopkins fought back valiantly. With his ship in flames and her stern gun-crew dead, engine cadet Edwin O'Hara, from the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, fired the last five available shells, setting the Stier on fire. O'Hara, killed by shrapnel, and 40 others went down with the ship. The Stier blew up and sank. The 19 survivors of the SS Stephen Hopkins set off on a 2,000-mile, 31-day voyage to Brazil in a lifeboat during which four crewmen died.

Captain Paul Buck, O'Hara and three officers were given the Distinguished Service Award posthumously. The Hopkins received the Gallant Ship Award. The U.S. Merchant Marine Academy is the only Federal academy authorized to carry the Battle Standard Flag, by virtue of her 142 Cadets killed in action."

http://www.usmm.org/ww2.html

This brings up an interesting question. Given that both sides recognized unrestricted warfare against all shipping of an enemy, were there really any "rules" prohibiting merchant ships from being armed?

Given that they were "fair game" targets and subject to be attacked by aircraft, surface vessels and submarines, without any warning, what purpose would the prohibition of weapons serve?

Clearly disguising yourself as a neutral nation ship (say Sweden) when in fact you were from a beligerent nation, would be prohibited.

But what distinction would a merchant ship have that arming it would eliminate? (Other than the ability to be sunk without putting up at least token resistance.)

Tom

Hi Rodger!!

That would be a very interesting dio to be made on the By The Book" Campaign

The problem would be finding the German Raider and the Escort - but it would be a scene full of action

Thanks for sharing

Skipper

Under International Law, a commerce raider wether commisioned or privateer was required to stop and search a merchant ship before taking as prize or sinking and ensure it's crew was as safe as possible.
when Germany declared unrestricted warfare (If it moves sink it!) This cause became obsolete and led to the Merchant Ships/Seaman being given 'combatant' status and hence weapons to defend/attack with. Prior to this law required a Merchant seamen to be treated as a civilian.
This is a brief interpretation from the Cato Institute's International Laws of War (www.cato.org/dailys/08-08-04-2. It's a long document but that's the gist of it.
Tom

Steve (95Bravo) Squadron Shop named it their kit of the year. Seeings how other than one year they always pick a Airplane, I think this speaks for itself. They are also quite reasonably priced at under $30. I have so many unbuilt kits at this time, that I don't need to add anything else to the mix (still waiting on the NC) but I eventually will pick one up.

I've been debating whether to pick one of these up or not as well. Squadron also has a detail set available for it. It sure looks like there would be a lot of rigging, which has been keeping me from buying one.

Thanks for the explantion, makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Tom

I picked up the issue of FSM that had a review of it. To me, the review seemed a bit indifferent. I'd still want one. I'd also like to have the Snowberry Corvette. I think both of them, along with the U-Boat would make a nice addition to a collection.

Does anyone know if this ship was a Kaiser built ship?

95Bravo
She was built at the New England Ship Corporation, Soutj Portland , Maine
Tom