Hey all, i actually still am here and somewhat working on the pt boat. i'll try to get some updated pics up soon. i do have yet another question for you guys. on the edge of the deck of the model there is a raised area about 1/4" wide that looks like it is some sort of bolted down reenforcement strip. does anyone know if that strip would have been made of wood or would it be metal of some sort? i have found one pic of it where it has battle damage, but it's not clear enough to tell what it's made of. thanks again for all ya'lls help
Bill
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Elco PT boat questions
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 02:39 PM UTC
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 02:17 AM UTC
Bill -
Take a picture of it. If I see it - I could help more.
Garth
Take a picture of it. If I see it - I could help more.
Garth
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 04:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
hey Garth, the area i'm talking about is what is seen at the very top of this pic. it's roughly 1/4" wide and has what look to be bolt heads evenly spaced. it goes mostly around the perimeter of the deck with a few breaks here and there. it's also slightly wider at the rear of the boat. any idea if it's metal? the reason i ask is i want to weather the boat and have paint chips, if it's metal i'll show slight rusting in some areas.
thanks again for ya'lls help,
Bill
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 06:55 AM UTC
Oh ....
That's where they run the wiring and all that through .... I THINK since it housed wiring that it'd be some sort of light metal alloy ... but it was painted the same color of the deck. In the case of the 596 ... that'd be Deck Green.
Garth
That's where they run the wiring and all that through .... I THINK since it housed wiring that it'd be some sort of light metal alloy ... but it was painted the same color of the deck. In the case of the 596 ... that'd be Deck Green.
Garth
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 08:48 AM UTC
I think we are talking about two different areas, sorry my explaination wasn't very clear. i think you're talking about the wireway running alongside one side of the day room. the area i'm asking about is along the outside perimeter of the deck, all around the deck. it's just visable in the upper right hand corner of the photo posted. the slightly raised area that has the raised dots spaced along the top of it. i assume it's reenforcement, i just don't know if it would be wood or metal. sorry for the confusion and thanks for the response.
Bill
Bill
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 10:55 AM UTC
Oh, THAT?
You've got me ...
Could be a deck reinforcement ..............
Garth
You've got me ...
Could be a deck reinforcement ..............
Garth
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 04:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
...the area i'm talking about is what is seen at the very top of this pic. it's roughly 1/4" wide and has what look to be bolt heads evenly spaced. it goes mostly around the perimeter of the deck with a few breaks here and there. it's also slightly wider at the rear of the boat. any idea if it's metal? the reason i ask is i want to weather the boat and have paint chips, if it's metal i'll show slight rusting in some areas.
Bill
The ribbed object that runs alongside the day cabin is the cover for the throttle pushrods.
The item around the perimeter of the deck on the actual boat is a covering board, which is flush with the top of the deck. Essentially, a covering board (also referred to as a margin plank) is used to cover the end grain of the deck planking to prevent it from soaking up water. The specs book for the 565-624 boats calls for the covering board to be mahogany.
Al Ross
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 06:01 PM UTC
awesome! thanks Al. so i guess it will just be normal wear marks without rust. thanks for the help, i'm sure i'll be bugging you guys again before it's all said and done.
bill
bill
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 02:16 AM UTC
OK.
If it's supposed to be flushed with the deck, then why have the rivit like things in it? I looked at a 'famous' photo both the 588 and 593 both being at docks, and you cannot see those rivit like items in the photos. So, Italeri got that wrong ...
Question, ... if it was determined that the gentleman was not referring to the covering for the push-rods, then why post a drawing of it? Just asking.
Garth
If it's supposed to be flushed with the deck, then why have the rivit like things in it? I looked at a 'famous' photo both the 588 and 593 both being at docks, and you cannot see those rivit like items in the photos. So, Italeri got that wrong ...
Question, ... if it was determined that the gentleman was not referring to the covering for the push-rods, then why post a drawing of it? Just asking.
Garth
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 03:57 AM UTC
funny you should mention that, on just about all of the photos i could find online of other pt boats i can't make out any raised area around the deck, BUT on the three or so pics i found of 596, there is definately a raised area. so either it wasn't raised like that on some boats, the pics aren't clear enough to show that it was raised, OR perhaps it's just an anomoly,. either way, i'm not going to sweat it, it looks about right to me so i'll leave the rivet heads, it adds more interest either way.
as for posting the drawing of the wireway, perhaps he posted it to help further illustrate the two different areas being discussed, either way i'm glad he did, that's one more piece of information i didn't have and you can never have too much reference pics.
Thanks,
Bill
as for posting the drawing of the wireway, perhaps he posted it to help further illustrate the two different areas being discussed, either way i'm glad he did, that's one more piece of information i didn't have and you can never have too much reference pics.
Thanks,
Bill
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 05:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
OK.
Question, ... if it was determined that the gentleman was not referring to the covering for the push-rods, then why post a drawing of it? Just asking.
The throttle push rod cover was mentioned a couple times in this thread and misidentified as a wire way. The factory drawings support the correction and provide additional detail for anyone interested.
Al
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 05:53 AM UTC
well thanks again guys for a your help. sorry i kept calling it a wireway, just a bad habit when i see a channel like that, it's close to something we use in our design so that's what i think of when i see it. anyway, i appreciate you all going out of your way to help.
next question i have, and it's more of a curiousity because i'm not going to change the model. but i have noticed in some photos of pt boats, the decks appear smooth and on other pics, you can actually see the gaps between the planking. are some boats decks coated or painted that thick and some not or do they vary or again is it just a matter of what's not showing up in the pic? again, i'm just curious. thanks,
Bill
next question i have, and it's more of a curiousity because i'm not going to change the model. but i have noticed in some photos of pt boats, the decks appear smooth and on other pics, you can actually see the gaps between the planking. are some boats decks coated or painted that thick and some not or do they vary or again is it just a matter of what's not showing up in the pic? again, i'm just curious. thanks,
Bill
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 09:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
next question i have, and it's more of a curiousity because i'm not going to change the model. but i have noticed in some photos of pt boats, the decks appear smooth and on other pics, you can actually see the gaps between the planking. are some boats decks coated or painted that thick and some not or do they vary or again is it just a matter of what's not showing up in the pic? again, i'm just curious. thanks,
Hi Bill,
Several factors at work here. With regards ELCOs, from what I can tell from plans, photos, and specs books, the decks on 103-196, 314-367, 372-383 were planked, while those from 486 on were plywood. In addition, the specs books call for two coats of nonskid paint on the deck. I don't have similar data for the Higgins boats, although photos show planked decks on PT 308. Photos of some of the earlier Higgins boats show very pronounced planking joints. Keep in mind, both types were built by yacht builders; there wouldn't be any gaps between the planks, only bedding compound or glue.
Al
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
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Posted: Friday, September 25, 2009 - 02:33 AM UTC
Yes, decks were planked. However, as it has been stated many times before, the planking was very tightly laid down, often appearing to be a single piece of wood.
There are several photos which I've seen of boats in theater where one can see wearing of the paint, most often by the stern and the 40mm where you can actually see the planking. Which I think is actually cool to see as it helps modelers.
Just my 2 cents. Have a nice day. Bye.
Garth
There are several photos which I've seen of boats in theater where one can see wearing of the paint, most often by the stern and the 40mm where you can actually see the planking. Which I think is actually cool to see as it helps modelers.
Just my 2 cents. Have a nice day. Bye.
Garth
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
Model Shipwrights: 52 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 02:53 PM UTC
Thanks again guys. i always wondered about that. it seems when the Italeri kit first came out a lot of people were saying it was wrong that it did't have the planks showing, but in many of the pics i've come across, there are no lines between the planks so i think italeri got that one right.
ok, next question and this has to do with the crew's clothing. i'm attempting to modify some figures to have a crew in more realistic uniforms ie... shorts, t-shirts or shirtless as most of the pics show them like taht. i noticed in a few pics, even the famous Kennedy photos, some are wearing what appeard to be a Marine type soft hat (sorry, i know that's probably not the correct term) are those in fact the same as what the marines have? i'll try to post a pic of what i'm refering to if i can find a good example.
thanks again everyone.
Bill
ok, next question and this has to do with the crew's clothing. i'm attempting to modify some figures to have a crew in more realistic uniforms ie... shorts, t-shirts or shirtless as most of the pics show them like taht. i noticed in a few pics, even the famous Kennedy photos, some are wearing what appeard to be a Marine type soft hat (sorry, i know that's probably not the correct term) are those in fact the same as what the marines have? i'll try to post a pic of what i'm refering to if i can find a good example.
thanks again everyone.
Bill
gator
Vendor
#027
Joined: April 13, 2005
KitMaker: 5,422 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 03:14 AM UTC
Hey Billy. After reading some of the "adventures" of a customer's father who served on PT's, I would imagine that the clothing would be anything they could beg, borrow or steal. These guys made McHale's Navy, the original series, seem pretty tame.
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
Model Shipwrights: 52 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 03:58 AM UTC
Hey Kenny, thanks, that's kind of what i thought but since i saw so many wearing that type hat, i thought maybe they actually were issued them.
missed ya at the meeting the other night. i actually showed up for one! i think it was my annual appearance. hope to catch you at another one soon. i'd like to see about getting with you on the stars and maybe some hull number masks.
Bill
missed ya at the meeting the other night. i actually showed up for one! i think it was my annual appearance. hope to catch you at another one soon. i'd like to see about getting with you on the stars and maybe some hull number masks.
Bill
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 04:13 AM UTC
I THINK where whatever boat was based at would have determined the style and the 'extent' of the uniforms (or lack thereof) ... and remember, PTs were not capitol ships .... the regs were somewhat 'relaxed' ...
But, it is said that Kennedy admonished some of the crew for coming to the mess-table naked at one time.
Garth
But, it is said that Kennedy admonished some of the crew for coming to the mess-table naked at one time.
Garth
goldenpony
Joined: July 03, 2007
KitMaker: 3,529 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 04:30 AM UTC
Isn’t the move “They were Expendable” a semi decent source for that type of info? I know the movie makers worked with PT boat crews to get things as correct as they could.
Heck, it gives you a good excuse to spent a Saturday afternoon watching a John Wayne movie!
Heck, it gives you a good excuse to spent a Saturday afternoon watching a John Wayne movie!
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
Model Shipwrights: 872 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 06:44 AM UTC
Hmmmm, ...
Sort of .............. PT-109 would be too.
Sort of .............. PT-109 would be too.
goldenpony
Joined: July 03, 2007
KitMaker: 3,529 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 08:01 AM UTC
I know, trusting Hollywood with history lessons is not always a good thing.
TGarthConnelly
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 875 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 10:42 AM UTC
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeup.
niart17
Joined: October 29, 2008
KitMaker: 76 posts
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Posted: Friday, October 02, 2009 - 03:49 AM UTC
yes, i had "they were expendable" recorded on my dish receiver but lost all of that to the flood. i remember watching it thinking "man, when i start that pt boat this will be some good reference" oh well, i'll catch again sometime.
I have another question. i'm gonna post this over in the armor area too since they may know. did the shells for the 40mm come in their containers grouped together on the clips in fours or was that something the crews had to do once they removed them from their crates? i was looking at the pics of some of the shipping containers and it doesn't look like they would fit in if they were on the clips, but it's pretty hard to tell for sure.
thanks again for all you guys help.
Bill
I have another question. i'm gonna post this over in the armor area too since they may know. did the shells for the 40mm come in their containers grouped together on the clips in fours or was that something the crews had to do once they removed them from their crates? i was looking at the pics of some of the shipping containers and it doesn't look like they would fit in if they were on the clips, but it's pretty hard to tell for sure.
thanks again for all you guys help.
Bill
alross2
Joined: May 18, 2006
KitMaker: 317 posts
Model Shipwrights: 308 posts
Posted: Friday, October 02, 2009 - 09:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have another question. i'm gonna post this over in the armor area too since they may know. did the shells for the 40mm come in their containers grouped together on the clips in fours or was that something the crews had to do once they removed them from their crates? i was looking at the pics of some of the shipping containers and it doesn't look like they would fit in if they were on the clips, but it's pretty hard to tell for sure.
Bill
Bill,
According to TM 9-252 (40mm M1), they were packed two ways: clipped and singley. Here are the applicable pages:
Al Ross
TAFFY3
Joined: January 21, 2008
KitMaker: 2,531 posts
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2009 - 04:05 AM UTC
Hello Jim, you sure are right about Hollywood and history. That being said, you can find some interesting stuff in the movies. The boats in "They were Expendable" for example. They were not the right type of PT for the period and events they were supposedly portraying.They were 80' Elcos (like PT 109), not the completely different 77' Elco boat used by Bulkley and his Squadron in the Philippines. You can find some interesting detail shots of the 80' boats that were used in the movie. In one sequence showing the boats approaching their docks, I noticed that although they still had torpedo tubes, they also had the raised platform forward for a 20mm gun. No gun was mounted as would have been correct for early war boats(PT 109 did not have the gun or the platform), but neither was the after twenty for some reason. The other day I was watching "Destroyer" which starred Edward G. Robinson, and that featured a fictional USS John Paul Jones. I Googled the hull number of the ship used in the movie and found out it was really the USS Hobby, which had served proudly during WWII. There are a lot of really good shots of the ship which could help someone interested in modeling the USS Hobby. So you can use movie as a reference source, but you have to be able to put what you are seeing in context with what you are trying to model. And always take anything from Hollywood with a large grain of salt. 
Al
Al
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