Hello Stu,

I would tend to agree with you ... but let me check a source and answer you factually and correctly.

OK, according to Lambert & Ross' ALLIED COASTAL FORCES, VOL. II ...

PT-103 through 117 were originally, (according to the Table in the book) painted in Navy Gray (5) with Dark Gray (5-D) superstructure.

That same Table does also says that these same boats had Measure 13 applied to them ... this was overall Green (according to that Table) possibly a variation of Tropical Green system.

But, to me, that is a little confusing, because according to http://shipcamouflage.com/measure_13.htm:

That scheme consists of:

Vertical Surfaces:

Vertical surfaces from boot-topping to top of superstructure masses, pole masts, yards, slender upper works above level of top superstructure masses, Haze Gray, 5-H.

Horizontal Surfaces:

Horizontal surfaces, Deck Blue, 20-B.

So, logically, since the photos of the 109 on that cargo ship show her in an overall single color, I'd have to conclude that she was either overall green or overall gray.

But ... I COULD be mistaken.

Garth

Garth,
Thanks. Tonally, the colour does look the same as the ship.
I have read (PT King , unknown history) that PT109 was not painted green until very late on (just before her loss) as there was no time, so I would also conclude that she was overall gray. Good to get your opinion.
Regards,
S

No problem Stu.

Hi Stu,
Garth didn't read the table from Al's book correctly. The initial paint scheme of these boats was Navy Gray Hull with 5D (Dark Gray) on on the deck and above. Coperoyd on the bottoms. When shipped to Panama I believe they were painted overall Measure 1 (5D - Dark Gray). The subsequent paint scheme of PT-109 is a field created green. But not all boats were painted green. I spoke and have exchanged letters with Mr. Keresey and Mr. Iles, both of which were skippers of PT-105. Mr. Keresey was skipper of PT-105 at the time of the 109 sinking. He was quite certain his boat was "battleship gray" and Mr. Iles had exactly the same description. I'm convinced at least PT-105 was painted 5D. I know PT-105 was camouflaged later but not overall green shown in later photos.

I've included some photos of PT-109 in color tied up with some 77' Elco's which share the field created overall green color that PT-109 was painted at the time of her sinking.

PT-109 is on the starboard side of PT-61 as verified by the skipper, Mr. Prescott. By the way, don't confuse PT-61 with any paint scheme. She was painted with what was handy. Long story. The second photo shows a 77' Elco tied up on the port side of PT-61. It shows better the green they created in the field.




For the record Al's book says that these boats could have been painted Measure 13 (Haze Gray 5H & Deck Blue 20-B), or a variation of Tropical Green. This field created green is often referred to as Tropical Green. But trust me, it has no resemblance to the White Ensign Models paint named Tropical Green.

If you're painting your boat gray I would suggest using Dark Gray (5D).

I hope that helps clear up the mystery and doesn't make it worse.
Dave

Dave,
Thanks for the information. I intend to model 109 (or 107) as seen on the Joseph Stanton, so I will be painting her gray. A few years back I built the Revell 1/72 kit and spent considerable time detailing it. I have painted it Tropical Green which was the fashion at the time and I reckon you are right about that colour. It seems too blue.
Many Thanks,
S

As it is the book, the Table is a little confusing to read.

While we wait for an update on this build (at least for me), I thought I would pass on something of interest. As I posted before, I wanted to see this build thru before I committed to dumping the cash on the Italeri kit. In my mind that is a lot of cash to dump into plastic. So that price tag has me in total AMS mode because I would like to build it as close to the real thing as possible plus or minus a rivet or 2. So I scarfed up some ref books (including Mr. Connelly’s books) and thought heck for $11 or so bucks I can pick up the Revell 1/72 kit and maybe use it as a test. I know I have built it several time before in my youth (they don’t do well against bb guns and fire crackers lobbed at them racing down a creek) and thought that would be a good way to get the old PT boat building juices a flowing again before I commit to the big kit. Well low and behold -- did you know that if you bought all the aftermarket details* that are available for the Revell kit not including the original kit, the Italeri kit is cheaper …. Well at least now I have a PT-109 kit back in the ole stash.

*I used this link as a reference/start - http://www.ptboatworld.com/PT_Boat_Models/PT109Model.htm

I am sure I don’t need all that aftermarket stuff but I was quite amused at how close the cost was if you include total AMS.

Good observation. Every kit has opportunities for improvement. When I build my Revell 109 kit a few years ago I invested in several after market parts including the WEM photo etch, most of which I ended up not using. And after all that you still need to do a lot of scratch work andkit bashing to make it look right.

Italeri is releasing their upgrade set and it should be available soon. There are a few options out there for upgrading but not many. I would invite you (if you haven't been there already) to the new location of the PT Boat Forum.

http://ptboatforum.com

There you'll find help for petty much any questions you might have. I hope you enjoy your kit. I think we're all enjoying Todd put his together.
Dave

Personally, I feel, despite its advanced age, the Revell kit is still a darn good kit. Especially now with the availability of the P/E frets and weapons kits from WEM and the like.........

The late Alex Johnson, who built my PT-171, my PT-174 (and I just receive the model of PT-59 as a torpedo boat he built from the 1:96 Gulfstream kit from his widow yesterday) seemed to agree with me on the Revell kit.

But, hey - what do I know?

I've been following this thread with interest as I have my Italeri 109 and plan to build it for the Torpedo Boat Campaign starting in July. I see you've gotten to the color part of the discussion (we knew it was coming) and wanted to dip my oar in. I like to use Tamiya paint, including their rattle cans if necessary, and given the size of this baby I thought that would be the smart way to go. Looking at the Tamiya colors available, I've preliminarily chosen XF-67/TS-61 NATO Green as the possible finish. It's not too dark or too light and looks about right to my eye (I'm thinking the actual paint looks a bit more blue than the color shows on my monitor.) What do you experts think?

Michael

Hi, Michael,
Doesn't really help with your question but, you could consider painting her in grey. The excellent PT KIng website inferrs that 109 was not painted green until around spring 1943. Up until then she could have been in a dark grey probably close to the shade she was seen in upon shipping on the Joseph Stanton, but would have been pretty weathered by then. The photos that David has posted here are as close as we can get to the shades in question. The swabbed deck of the 61 boat is a starting point for the grey, but in the other photos there seem to be green patches on the cabin on my monitor so who knows? If you lighten your Tamiya green with light grey you may be getting close to the green seen on the depth charges of the boat alongside.
Regards,
Stu

Hi guys,
The correct gray color for the 109 would have been Dark Gray designated by the Navy as 5-D. You can buy this color from White Ensign Models in enamel paint. As you suggested Stu if you want to weather the boat you want to lighten the color as well. Weathering in Panama and the south pacific was very harsh and faded the paint.

As for the color on PT-61 shown above. Mr. Prescott who was the skipper of that boat explained that they were out of paint at the time the boat needed to be painted. So they mixed up what they had which was this blue gray paint which is unique to this boat only. I wouldn't use it as a guideline for anything except PT-61. What's amazing is how gray and dusty this boat looked until you throw down water on here deck and the colors pop.

Here are some color photographs of the dark gray color. You can see why veterans refer to the color of these boats as "Battleship Gray". If you are okay with enamels I would suggest the White Ensign Models paint and lighten appropriately with a lighter color gray from their range.

I must have missed this one and I quote:


Is there any more info on this upgrade? Seems everyone is waiting on this.

Is there any more info on this upgrade? Seems everyone is waiting on this. [Quoted text]

The only info is some box art showing two radar masts, a 40mm Bofors, a 20mm Oerlikon, a life raft, two different torpedoes, and (presumably 2) depth charges. Al

I worked with Italeri on this set. They sent me some pictures of the finished box art but told me that they want to release it on their web site so out of respect I'm not publishing what they sent me. I can tell you I haven't seen the complete set so I'm anxious to see what's all included as well. As soon as I see something I'll share it (if you don't see it first).

Dave

Hello again. Hope you are getting along O.K. Todd.
Just to keep the ball rolling I have been discussing over on PTBoatforum about a modification to introduce a foreward rake to the dayroom, the lack of which makes the rear turret stagger look strange. I have just finished it and I think it improves the look of the model quite a lot. Note the angle of the front edge of the outer spray screen, and the sliver I cut off the inner to add to the edge of the dayroom wall. The turret edge needs to be cut back to allow the wall to butt up correctly. It still need a bit of filling but all is O.K. I cut out a strip from the engine hatch to accomodate the extra length at the rear.I added a couple of filler strips at the front to fill in the gap around the cockpit steps.
Best regards,
Stu

All is well Stu...Thanks! Been just working on clean-ups still. Great to have you adding to the show and keeping this alive! Nice job fixing dependencies you found....Coming along very well!!

Excellent tutorial Stu! I really appreciate you and Todd leading the way on this. I'm taking notes and looking forward to getting started soon.
Dave

Thanks, Dave.
I am really absorbed in this one as you can probably tell.
Regards,
S

Spent the evening adjusting the fit and finish of the modifications, and repairing the work I had already done. Followed Jeff's advice and moved the boathook and all looks well. Just the centre support for the hook to add from brass. I am glad I took the plunge as it would have bugged me being wrong.

I will get on with some construction now instead of destruction.

Stu

Italeri has released their PT Boat Conversion kit. Not sure anything would be useful for PT-109.
Here is the link
http://www.italeri.com/scheda.asp?idProdotto=2214

I CANNOT subscribe to this thread! What's up with that?

Michael

Hey David, just to be precise, you're talking about "#5 Standard Navy Gray," correct?

Hi Tracy,
The research I have from Al Ross is the following...

Initial paint scheme out of the factory...
Hull from waterline to deck - #5 Standard Navy Gray
Deck and above - Dark Gray #5-D

Subsequent measures
Measure 13 which is a combination of 5H Haze Gray and 20B Deck Blue.

Tropical Green - Field mix as shown previously in this post.

I'll invite Al to step in and share the basis of his research.

What we see in photos taken in Panama is that the early 103 class Elco's are painted in an overall solid color except for the bottom which is painted in Coperoyd. I have also read that the color of the deck features was extended to the hull to make the boat a solid color as we see in the photos. I don't know that as fact, only what I've read. I contacted both Mr. Keresey and Mr. Iles and they both told me that their boat, PT-105, was "Battleship Gray" which is not a color, but for the day they meant dark gray. I believe that the boats were probably painted overall Dark Gray 5-D. Later these boats, as with PT-109, were painted green and different camouflage patterns

From a modeler's perspective we know that these paints fades terribly in the tropical sun. Also black and white photography can be very deceiving. Here are some photos to demonstrate what my thinking...

PT-117 demonstrating initial paint scheme (or is it measure 13?)


PT-105 at Panama. You can see in this photo that it is an overall dark color which I believe to be 5-D as documented by Al Ross.


Here is what I believe is a color photo of the 5-D. Total guess on my part but I've seen many photos in black and white that make me think this is the right color. Lots of blue undertones in these photos but you get the idea.




I had some other photos of 103 class boats in the field painted this way but I can't put my hands on them right now for some reason the computer gods can only explain.

It's a modeler's choice but I think what I'm going to do with my 105 build is go with a faded 5-D.

So that's the research I have and my thinking on these initial boats deployed to the South Pacific via Panama. I'll reach out to Al.

Take care

Dave

I heard back from Al. He reminded me that was 25 years ago when he did that research. But he did tell me that "The Standard Navy Gray (5) and Dark Gray (5D) came directly from the detail specifications manual for the 103 series boats, the rest from photos and a few other documents."

Dave