Ships by Class/Type: Submarines
Topics on submarines of all types and eras.
Building Bronco's Big Type XXIII Sub
BubbleheadSparks
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: June 17, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Model Shipwrights: 78 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 08:23 AM UTC
Word of warning regarding ordering the Raboesch 162-22 brass propeller: that is the most appropriate prop for this big model. I ordered mine from LoyalHanna, a vendor who imports from the UK. The price was $20 + $5 shipping. The charletan doesn't charge up front, but places the order and uses your credit card info to charge later when he gets the prop in from the UK. This so-and-so charged me $50! Claimed that the prices had gone up suddenly due to an increase in the "cost of copper". A $20 prop became a $45 prop!

When I blasted him and told him I would dispute the charges and report him, he agreed to send me a rebate. Don't do business with these crooks! I've gotten the prop now and it's a beauty with a long, graceful tailcone ... but that doesn't negate the anger I felt by being cheated.

In fact, don't do business with anyone who doesn't have Paypal. Paypal won't deal with crooks and that's usually a tip-off. Be warned, all of you. Find that 162-22 through another vendor who uses Paypal and charges up front!
mgrummitt
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California, United States
Joined: January 07, 2014
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Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 08:36 AM UTC
It's crappy that happened to you for the prop!

BubbleheadSparks
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: June 17, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 02:01 PM UTC
Here's a little info on props: the European standard of prop rotation views the vessel from the BOW and the American standard of prop rotation views the vessel from the STERN. The Raboesch 162-22 is billed as a LH (left hand) propeller, but they use European. That makes it an American RH rotation, which is what the XXIII used.

To clarify all this, an American standard RH prop, when viewed from astern, rotates clockwise to move ahead and counter-clockwise when reversing. The 162-22 is the correct diameter and rotation ... however, the blade profile is NOT correct.

The blades are not symetrical ... as the XXIII had. They are directional with an extended leading edge and a splayed trailing edge for very good thrust ahead and so-so thrust in reverse. American warships used the directional blade profile.

Short story: for authenticity, you need to cut a pattern of the XXIII's symetrical blade and trace it onto the 162-22's blades and then grind them to match. The blades are thin, so it's not a big job ... but you need to be aware of this.

Finally, there should be a very slight seam between the tailcone and the prop. You can score this in with a bent needle while the prop is mounted onto a threaded 4mm stud that's chucked into a drill. Slow speed ... and mind that you don't ding the blades. Just lightly score the seam in.

The next detail is lightly marking the bolt holes where the tail cone mounts to the prop ... around the circumference, just aft of the seam. Then lightly drill small dimples ... barely penetrating the surface. I do not know the spacing.

Finally, sharpen the blade edges to a knife edge and then blacken the propeller with cold gun-bluing solution. The XXIII sported a steel screw, not a bronze one. That's why this sub was peppered with all those zincs in the first place ... to keep that prop from being eaten up while whirring in the salt brine.
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
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Posted: Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 11:09 PM UTC
Yesterday I've tried to add some to that almost grey tower: the KM-flag. As it's forbidden in Germany to show swastikas oon exhibitions there should be some wrinkles to hide that sign.
At first some alloy foil was cut and superglued to a thin wire:



Before fixing the decal (from the EMC Naval Mine kit from AFV Club) both sides of the foil got a thin layer of Klear. After drying it was no problem to create the wrinkles without destroying the decal.



And in place with some color (Tamiya Nato Brown for the pole and Dark Yellow for the cord:



Hope you like it...


Michael
BubbleheadSparks
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: June 17, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 08:18 AM UTC
Nicely done, Michael. I know what you mean with censorship in Germany ... we have the same idiots trying to ban the flying of the confederate flag right here in South Carolina and that's just the tip of the thought-control police actions going on in our country.
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
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Posted: Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 09:52 AM UTC
I understand this kind of german censorship regarding the german history - there is nothing to glorify! But I think that there's a difference between idiots running down the street with this signs or modelling kits in a historical correct way. Decals showing hit scores on an american P-47 are also forbidden by german law! Not in my private chamber, but it's a menace to the public on exhibitions or in a forum!
Therefore this bad sign is hidden on my boat, but it is the correct ensign of the KM! And it's calm in my drydock and no wind will rattle the flag.


Michael
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
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Posted: Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 04:34 AM UTC
U 2336 is glued to the drydock and fastened:

     

     



...and all small parts were fixed too:

     



     




Michael
RedDuster
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 01, 2010
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Posted: Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 09:17 AM UTC
Outstanding Michael,

If I hadn't followed this build I would have thought I was looking at the real thing!

Si
DanielMoscatelli
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Montevideo, Uruguay
Joined: August 22, 2011
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Posted: Sunday, June 22, 2014 - 04:00 PM UTC
Woow Michael !! its a beautiful work !!!! Congratulation !!!

Cheers Daniel
beefy66
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England - North East, United Kingdom
Joined: October 22, 2007
KitMaker: 971 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:17 AM UTC
Great build and attention to detail there Michael Well Done

Keith
Gremlin56
Joined: October 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,897 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 - 05:15 AM UTC
This has certainly turned into a most amazing build.
Great detailing and magnificent scratch building.
BubbleheadSparks
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: June 17, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 07:40 AM UTC
Magnificent scratch-building, Michael! The flag actually looks even more realistic this way instead of flying open in an imaginary breeze as so many other dioramas do. Well done, shipmate!
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 06, 2014 - 08:31 AM UTC
THX mates!
And now a job, I don't really love. But there's a dock and a boat - and that scene needs some figures, crew members and workers - painted. I've tried my best, but I'm not a figure painter...

   



A little bit headless that U-models men, but the missing parts are lying in the near:



...still some workers missing, wait and see...

Michael
RussellE
#306
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Victoria, Australia
Joined: June 27, 2010
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Posted: Sunday, July 06, 2014 - 09:23 AM UTC
Outstanding work Michael!

The figures look great! Maybe they've been into the schnapps at the moment and are a bit headless, but I'm sure they'll come together soon!
BubbleheadSparks
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: June 17, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 07, 2014 - 06:47 PM UTC
Michael: If the boat's been in for more than a night, the beards will be gone. The crew had to be groomed to Navy regs once they had access to a proper barbershop. If they've just pulled into the drydock, then there will be no fresh paint on the hull ... and there will be moss or barnacles. Clothing will be foul, too.
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 05:06 AM UTC
...we can find a few picc of KM uboat commanders wearing beards on oficial causes (while being decortated with knihts cross) and not just after a mission only:






Michael
BubbleheadSparks
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: June 17, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 09:39 AM UTC
From the reference: Williamson, Gordon; Darko Pavlović (2001). Grey Wolf: U-Boat Crewman of World War II, page 36

http://books.google.com/books?id=PAoRYz4A_dIC&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false

"Although any beards grown were to be shaved off upon
return to port, photos exist of fully bearded U-Boat men
posing in their walking-out blues. However, it is assumed
these were souvenier snapshots for the family album, as
beards were definitely frowned upon once back
in port."

Also, reference the excellent movie "Das Boot" and take note of the appearance of the crews in the brothel prior to embarking on patrol at the beginning of the movie. Not one chin whisker to be found, and these guys were serious steamers. You shaved off the beard upon arrival; hell, the fashion of the day was, in fact, short-cut hair and shaved faces if you expected to get laid.

Seriously, do as you like ... but I can tell you from personal experience that once in drydock, the duty section remained on the boat and the rest scattered. Those remaining on board would NOT be wearing leathers or oilskins, but would be in a working uniform or on watch. They would still be bearded (the on-duty section) for an additional day until they could hit the beach and get cleaned up and laundered. The 3 S's; you may be familiar with it? If you're depicting the on-duty section still on board the day after arrival, then there will be no fresh paint on the hull yet. Scope and snorkel are down (to protect them during crane ops), nav lights and antennae are stowed belowdecks (the UZO definitely would be stowed). Lots of lines on the decks, gear from below will be topside waiting to be lifted away for maintenance on the tender. It's a scene of orchestrated chaos as the sand crabs try to work without getting in each other's way to get that boat ready for sea ASAP.
BubbleheadSparks
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: June 17, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 - 11:24 AM UTC
Just trying to help here ... your figures are all outfitted for sea (except the welder, of course)and that would be appropriate for initial arrival in the drydock before the brow is lowered to the boat. The water will have just been pumped out of the drydock, lots of puddles everywhere, some quite deep because the drydock deck plates have sagged badly over time. The XXIII was so small that probably only the skipper and one or two crew members would leave as soon as the brow was in place ... and they would go directly to the tender or headquarters to deliver some very important items to the commodore and then, perhaps, a shower and shave and drop off some very smelly laundry.

So if you're going to pose these guys in sea-going attire, you are depicting a fresh arrival in drydock ... and the hull will be fouled and rust and damage will be evident. Nobody has started work on the sub yet.

Hope I've helped a little here, Michael. I'd like to see your diorama be super authentic as your boat already is.
AlanL
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 12, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 - 02:34 AM UTC
Hi Micheal,

I haven't looked in on this one for awhile. Terrific progress and great attention to detail, this will be an outstanding build once you're finished.

Cheers

Al
Salmon
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Nevada, United States
Joined: March 25, 2014
KitMaker: 13 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 14, 2014 - 06:09 PM UTC
Michael, if the comments dissuade you from using these men, let me know, I will buy them from you. I need a crew for my Type XXIII.
Peace,
Tom
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 02:37 PM UTC
...only odds and ends while renovating the flat. And I'm working on some Hornet-heads - beardless! In the moment the LI is a little bit headless, maybe some problems with the boat. But he will get some help by members of the "Marinebauamt" later:





Michael
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
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Posted: Monday, August 11, 2014 - 07:12 AM UTC
Winter '44/'45: It's cold in the drydock. So why not wearing the leather clothing while inspecting the repair / improvment of their boat (such as removal of the front fins)? But they were shaved! Only one man - maybe a visiter from another boat, just arrived at habor, is bearded. I've finished the other guys with Hornet heads:

Kommandant and 1WO or LI:



Petty officer pointing the drawings with his cigar:



climbing visitor and 1WO/LI detail:

Macros are brutal!


Michael
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 06:25 AM UTC
Bleary eyes corrected:

Now I'm waiting for a sentinel...


Michael
TAFFY3
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New York, United States
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 03:44 AM UTC
(Quoted) Bleary eyes corrected:

Betterer. You might want to add a little shading to the clothing also. Al
Aurora-7
#360
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Connecticut, United States
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 02:45 AM UTC
That's quite the masterpiece you have their, Michael.

Between you and Al, you've set some high benchmarks on construction and finishing.

They look really great, guys.