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Pyro Chinese War Junk build
surfsup
Joined: May 20, 2010
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Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 08:27 AM UTC
I think she would be better if you left them off.....Cheers Mark
KoSprueOne
Joined: March 05, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 07:40 PM UTC
By keeping within the OOB build, could you just cut them shorter or would that really look too thick then?
TimReynaga
Associate Editor
Joined: May 03, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 06:06 PM UTC
BobSolo, John, Jan, Mark, and KoSprueOne – thanks for your perspectives, they are much appreciated! I agree, the absurdly oversized “bamboo poles” are absolutely unuseable as scale bamboo, and they make a mess of the ship’s lines too!
Still, I am going for a busy, “working” look on this build (I’ll probably add more boxes and other clutter to the deck too), and ugly poles slung alongside would certainly contribute to that look. Whatever those things were, photos of junks often do show them.
So I thought I’d try and salvage the kit parts by sanding the bamboo detail off and repurpose them to represent spare wooden masts (or possibly a cargo of hardwood poles or logs?) Styrene or brass rod could have worked for this too, but I think the irregularity of the sanded down bamboo parts would make for a better representation of roughly finished wooden poles.
Here’s the hull with its base coat of Tamiya XF-59 Desert Yellow.
Installed on the hull sides, I can’t say the poles/logs do anything for the ship’s lines, but at least they increase the busy-ness and add a bit of interest.
Still, I am going for a busy, “working” look on this build (I’ll probably add more boxes and other clutter to the deck too), and ugly poles slung alongside would certainly contribute to that look. Whatever those things were, photos of junks often do show them.
So I thought I’d try and salvage the kit parts by sanding the bamboo detail off and repurpose them to represent spare wooden masts (or possibly a cargo of hardwood poles or logs?) Styrene or brass rod could have worked for this too, but I think the irregularity of the sanded down bamboo parts would make for a better representation of roughly finished wooden poles.
Here’s the hull with its base coat of Tamiya XF-59 Desert Yellow.
Installed on the hull sides, I can’t say the poles/logs do anything for the ship’s lines, but at least they increase the busy-ness and add a bit of interest.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 08:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The bamboo pole parts in the kit are clearly oversized, but I wonder – should I go ahead and use them anyway, replace them, or maybe just leave them off altogether?
I've seen some bamboo, growing in the wilds of the Cambodian jungles, at least a foot in diameter. Also immensely tall. Don't know if there are different types of bamboo, or if it just keeps growing if not cut.
GrantGoodale
Joined: April 26, 2015
KitMaker: 99 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 08:24 PM UTC
If I might make a suggestion, you have the poles neatly stacked. In the photo, they are skewed at angles. It might help towards that "random" look.
FWIW
FWIW
TimReynaga
Associate EditorJoined: May 03, 2006
KitMaker: 2,500 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 12:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If I might make a suggestion, you have the poles neatly stacked. In the photo, they are skewed at angles. It might help towards that "random" look.
FWIW
That's an interesting idea. I placed them per the instructions, but they are just tacked to the hull so I can move them around later on if need be. I'll see how things look once the masts/sails are on.
TimReynaga
Associate EditorJoined: May 03, 2006
KitMaker: 2,500 posts
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Posted: Friday, October 30, 2015 - 06:05 AM UTC
Hull assembly is essentially complete, I just have to do the oil stain over the base coat to bring out the “wood” grain and then I can permanently attach the aft deck. The aft cabin has some nice detail on the interior - it would have been cool to put some extra details or a figure inside, but the view through those small side apertures is pretty restricted.
Plus, that compartment will be pretty dark once the deck overhead is on.
On the other hand... if I go back and punch out that “gun door” that I glued closed before, it would be a lot easier to see whatever I might put in there...
Plus, that compartment will be pretty dark once the deck overhead is on.
On the other hand... if I go back and punch out that “gun door” that I glued closed before, it would be a lot easier to see whatever I might put in there...
YellowHammer
#513
Joined: March 28, 2006
KitMaker: 554 posts
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Posted: Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 07:08 AM UTC
Hi Tim,
I've still been curious about thoe poles. I'm wondering, with the junks being used a lot as cargo vessels could the poles be used to erect a lifting rig to move cargo from ship to dock. I don't think the battens would be sturdy enough to support winching cargo from the hold. Setting three poles joined at the top would give a stury base for winching. Just a thought.
Second curiosity question. In the photo in your last post there is a recessed area in the stern below the gunroom door, with the rudder post extending up into the recess. Is that recess a feature of junks or is there something else to be installed?
Thanks
John
I've still been curious about thoe poles. I'm wondering, with the junks being used a lot as cargo vessels could the poles be used to erect a lifting rig to move cargo from ship to dock. I don't think the battens would be sturdy enough to support winching cargo from the hold. Setting three poles joined at the top would give a stury base for winching. Just a thought.
Second curiosity question. In the photo in your last post there is a recessed area in the stern below the gunroom door, with the rudder post extending up into the recess. Is that recess a feature of junks or is there something else to be installed?
Thanks
John
JJ1973
#345
Joined: August 22, 2011
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Posted: Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 09:24 PM UTC
Very nice progress, Tim!! 
The idea of stacking the bamboo at an angle seems pretty good to me, I would say it is worth a try and should help the overall appearance of your Junk.
Looks good!!
Cheers,
Jan
The idea of stacking the bamboo at an angle seems pretty good to me, I would say it is worth a try and should help the overall appearance of your Junk.
Looks good!!
Cheers,
Jan
BobSolo
Joined: August 30, 2014
KitMaker: 331 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 03:56 AM UTC
The poles could be for fishing and also double up as bumpstops,
http://www.shmoop.com/vietnam-war/photo-fishing-junk-2.html
Could also be cargo, this ones got a lot of logs!
http://visualisingchina.net/blog/2015/05/19/chinese-junks-models/
Maybe they carried a bit of everything they could fit on/in them and fished too!
Chopping the back open would add another dimension to the model
http://www.shmoop.com/vietnam-war/photo-fishing-junk-2.html
Could also be cargo, this ones got a lot of logs!
http://visualisingchina.net/blog/2015/05/19/chinese-junks-models/
Maybe they carried a bit of everything they could fit on/in them and fished too!
Chopping the back open would add another dimension to the model
YellowHammer
#513
Joined: March 28, 2006
KitMaker: 554 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 08:55 AM UTC
One of the photos in the second link that Bob posted shows the recessed area in the stern of the junk so it must be a feature of the craft. I also noted that the photo of the junk on the Min river shows an anchor simply suspended from the bow. Perhaps that is common on "river" junks but I think it would still be dangerous in open seas as previously discussed. Also, one of the photos shows a window or gunport in the stern wall that might be an option to improve visibility into the stern cabin. Love looking at these old photos. Tim, whichever way you decide to go I'm enjoying the build and the history lesson.
TimReynaga
Associate EditorJoined: May 03, 2006
KitMaker: 2,500 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 10:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Tim,
I've still been curious about those poles. I'm wondering, with the junks being used a lot as cargo vessels could the poles be used to erect a lifting rig to move cargo from ship to dock. I don't think the battens would be sturdy enough to support winching cargo from the hold. Setting three poles joined at the top would give a stury base for winching. Just a thought.
Thanks
John
...
Very nice progress, Tim!!
The idea of stacking the bamboo at an angle seems pretty good to me, I would say it is worth a try and should help the overall appearance of your Junk. Looks good!!
Cheers,
Jan
...
The poles could be for fishing and also double up as bumpstops, http://www.shmoop.com/vietnam-war/photo-fishing-junk-2.html... Could also be cargo, this ones got a lot of logs! http://visualisingchina.net/blog/2015/05/19/chinese-junks-models/ Maybe they carried a bit of everything they could fit on/in them and fished too!
Bob
...
John, Jan, and Bob -
Thanks for your ideas! Cargo lifting rig, fishing net booms, bumpers, cargo... I even thought the poles might be spare masts or battens for the ship itself... but John and Bob, I think you may have nailed it:
Bob’s pic showing fishing net booms deployed on a Vietnamese junk looks like a perfect match for the kit parts! I am now convinced that the kit poles in fact represent stowable booms used like this to support fishing nets. Thanks!
RedDuster
Joined: March 01, 2010
KitMaker: 7,078 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 01:35 PM UTC
Hi Tim,
Coming on very well. If you are going to add any detail in the rear cabin, would be worth opening the rear door, that sort of thing adds real depth and interest.
Very interesting debate on the booms, nothing worthwhile to add to it, but enjoyed reading it.
Cheers
Si
Coming on very well. If you are going to add any detail in the rear cabin, would be worth opening the rear door, that sort of thing adds real depth and interest.
Very interesting debate on the booms, nothing worthwhile to add to it, but enjoyed reading it.
Cheers
Si
RussellE
#306
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,959 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 02, 2015 - 03:42 PM UTC
Fascinating and entertaining blog, Tim
thanks for Sharing
thanks for Sharing
TimReynaga
Associate EditorJoined: May 03, 2006
KitMaker: 2,500 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 01:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
... In the photo in your last post there is a recessed area in the stern below the gunroom door, with the rudder post extending up into the recess. Is that recess a feature of junks or is there something else to be installed?
...one of the photos Bob posted shows the recessed area in the stern of the junk so it must be a feature of the craft.
John
John,
That open area at the stern caught my eye too. It is a characteristic feature of junks, one that baffled Western observers at first. In the Western tradition of nautical architecture there has always been an absolute horror of taking water aboard ship, particularly in the days before iron construction and compartmentalization. In the East, ships were built differently. Rather than the open frames and capacious interiors characteristic of Western ships, junk interiors were segmented with strong keel-to-deck bulkheads which could be made water tight. Although this made for higher weight to volume ratios and impaired access to compartments from within the vessel, there were advantages, too. The Chinese pioneered “wet stowage” where a space could be intentionally flooded to keep fish catches fresh, for example. It also made the ships more survivable if the hull was compromised.
The open stern reflected yet another advantage: greater stability in heavy seas. The open last section of the stern, backed by a solid water tight bulkhead, would quickly fill with water when hit by waves in a following sea, and it would just as quickly empty when the wave passed. The foremost few feet at the bow were also free-flooding. Together, these created temporary weights fore and aft to counteract the buoyancy swings caused by the moving sea, which had a dampening effect on the pitching of the vessel – very effective, and without any intervention by the crew! Pretty cool. I wonder if the booms stowed on the sides might have had a similar dampening effect on roll by increasing the vessel’s beam above the waterline?
The more I learn about the Chinese nautical tradition the more I respect their design accomplishments!
YellowHammer
#513
Joined: March 28, 2006
KitMaker: 554 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 01:55 AM UTC
Tim,
Thanks for the explanation. I always wondered about the ungainly appearance of the junks but it looks like their design was well thought out. I notice in your last photo that the lower part of the stern wall looks like it can be opened out. The notch in the bottom probably allows for raising the rudder or lowering the wall without damaging the rudder. Which makes me wonder if the Chinese followed the practice of the western ship builders in putting the captain's cabin in the stern or if the stern cabin was used for cargo and/or gunnery. Having a "hatch" at the back would sure improve cargo handling efficiency, especially with the compartmentalization inherent in their design.
Thanks again.
John
Thanks for the explanation. I always wondered about the ungainly appearance of the junks but it looks like their design was well thought out. I notice in your last photo that the lower part of the stern wall looks like it can be opened out. The notch in the bottom probably allows for raising the rudder or lowering the wall without damaging the rudder. Which makes me wonder if the Chinese followed the practice of the western ship builders in putting the captain's cabin in the stern or if the stern cabin was used for cargo and/or gunnery. Having a "hatch" at the back would sure improve cargo handling efficiency, especially with the compartmentalization inherent in their design.
Thanks again.
John
YellowHammer
#513
Joined: March 28, 2006
KitMaker: 554 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 01:59 AM UTC
I like that photo of the fishing junk as well. Notice the eyes on the bow you mentioned earlier and the rudder raised to avoid fowling the nets.
TimReynaga
Associate EditorJoined: May 03, 2006
KitMaker: 2,500 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 07:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
...one of the photos shows a window or gunport in the stern wall that might be an option to improve visibility into the stern cabin...John
...Chopping the back open would add another dimension to the model...Bob
...If you are going to add any detail in the rear cabin, would be worth opening the rear door, that sort of thing adds real depth and interest...Si
John, Bob, and Si,
I agree! Having sealed the door shut earlier in disgust at Pyro’s armament fiasco, I repented and have now opened it up again. Here’s how it looks with one of my crew and a bit of cargo (formerly a 1/72 scale 88mm ammunition case) test fitted.
They won’t be all that visible in the dark cabin once the deck is placed overhead, but the open door at the stern should add a bit of interest.
TRM5150
Joined: January 03, 2010
KitMaker: 2,159 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 08:13 AM UTC
Liking the look of the door open Tim! Things are looking really good my friend! 
YellowHammer
#513
Joined: March 28, 2006
KitMaker: 554 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 11:13 AM UTC
Tim,
I have to agree it sure looks good with the door open. Not sure how to depict the rudder controls though.
BTW, I picked up the Ertl Chinese Junk kit off of ebay recently so I'm definitely going to be following your progress closely. I haven't opened the box yet but it appears to be approx. the same size as yours. The box says the kits is from the IMAI molds and is in 1/135 scale. Do you know if it could be related to the Pyro kit in any way? I'm going to try and find some suitable N scale (1/144) figures for crew and maybe some farm animals as cargo.
Looking forward to your next progress update and thanks for the lessons in oriental maritime design!
I have to agree it sure looks good with the door open. Not sure how to depict the rudder controls though.
BTW, I picked up the Ertl Chinese Junk kit off of ebay recently so I'm definitely going to be following your progress closely. I haven't opened the box yet but it appears to be approx. the same size as yours. The box says the kits is from the IMAI molds and is in 1/135 scale. Do you know if it could be related to the Pyro kit in any way? I'm going to try and find some suitable N scale (1/144) figures for crew and maybe some farm animals as cargo.
Looking forward to your next progress update and thanks for the lessons in oriental maritime design!
JJ1973
#345
Joined: August 22, 2011
KitMaker: 1,835 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 11:21 PM UTC
Very nice Tim!!
Looking at your build, I am glad you changed your mind and opened the after door. That will add a lot of depth and detail to your build!
Again very nice and entertaining following along your build!!
Cheers,
Jan
Looking at your build, I am glad you changed your mind and opened the after door. That will add a lot of depth and detail to your build!
Again very nice and entertaining following along your build!!
Cheers,
Jan
BobSolo
Joined: August 30, 2014
KitMaker: 331 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 01:05 AM UTC
That looks great, a lil surprise when you look around the back!
RedDuster
Joined: March 01, 2010
KitMaker: 7,078 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 11:13 PM UTC
Looks really good with the stern hatch open Tim,
That will add some real depth and interest,
Cheers.
Si
That will add some real depth and interest,
Cheers.
Si
TimReynaga
Associate EditorJoined: May 03, 2006
KitMaker: 2,500 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 12, 2015 - 02:22 PM UTC
Thanks, guys.
John, your comment got me thinking... I didn’t depict the rudder controls (what would amount to a large tiller) in the cabin, or the rudder raising cables leading from the winches above, or the mizzen mast base which might be visible through the door. It would all be guesswork anyway as I have no references from which to work.
So I’m taking a different tack entirely. Rather than creating a technically accurate space, I thought I’d go for something a little more interesting and focus on the human element. The figure I test fitted earlier looked good, but with that large open door I thought it might be fun to try something a little different.
CAUTION – IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY NUDITY OR HUMAN SEXUALITY READ NO FURTHER!
but if you’re game, scroll down...
I found these unconventional HO scale figures online:
With the brass bedposts discarded and the mattress sanded down to just the bedding, the couple make an amusing subtext discreetly tucked away inside the cabin.
I wasn’t sure this whimsical element would be entirely appropriate to the dignity of Pyro’s classic junk, but my wife assured me that she finds it hilarious, especially since you have to get really close to the model to see what’s going on in there.
Even under extreme lighting, the side windows offer only a very limited view inside. Once the deck is installed above, the figures will actually become rather hard to see in the dim enclosed space (the wife suggested that I install a small light).
I agree, Bob; here’s my favorite perspective – the “stern view”:
Quoted Text
Tim,
...looks good with the door open. Not sure how to depict the rudder controls though... John
John, your comment got me thinking... I didn’t depict the rudder controls (what would amount to a large tiller) in the cabin, or the rudder raising cables leading from the winches above, or the mizzen mast base which might be visible through the door. It would all be guesswork anyway as I have no references from which to work.
So I’m taking a different tack entirely. Rather than creating a technically accurate space, I thought I’d go for something a little more interesting and focus on the human element. The figure I test fitted earlier looked good, but with that large open door I thought it might be fun to try something a little different.
CAUTION – IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY NUDITY OR HUMAN SEXUALITY READ NO FURTHER!
but if you’re game, scroll down...
I found these unconventional HO scale figures online:
With the brass bedposts discarded and the mattress sanded down to just the bedding, the couple make an amusing subtext discreetly tucked away inside the cabin.
I wasn’t sure this whimsical element would be entirely appropriate to the dignity of Pyro’s classic junk, but my wife assured me that she finds it hilarious, especially since you have to get really close to the model to see what’s going on in there.
Even under extreme lighting, the side windows offer only a very limited view inside. Once the deck is installed above, the figures will actually become rather hard to see in the dim enclosed space (the wife suggested that I install a small light).
Quoted Text
That looks great, a lil surprise when you look around the back! ...BobSolo
I agree, Bob; here’s my favorite perspective – the “stern view”:
YellowHammer
#513
Joined: March 28, 2006
KitMaker: 554 posts
Model Shipwrights: 219 posts
Posted: Friday, November 13, 2015 - 12:07 AM UTC
Tim,
Love the originality. Perhaps some red trim on the hull and a lady captain in a dress? And don't forget the cats!
Love the originality. Perhaps some red trim on the hull and a lady captain in a dress? And don't forget the cats!
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