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surfsup
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2013 - 07:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The secret services of the Kriegsmarine taken one photo of the movements of the enemies!!!.....



Sorry ......



This is brilliant, obviously photos of our prototype Vosper taken by one of Daniel's stealth submarines when Warren and I were testing the boat near Clugton on Ditchwater, (the RN secret base, a bit like Area 51 but slightly more refined). Daniel now has photos of our top secret silent drive propulsion and we all know the dastardly Hun will over-engineer their copy and incorporate it in their S-boats...........
By the way: why does Warren get all the stripes on his uniform


Because the Senior Officer always goes down with his Ship... Only just came across the Thread. Love it. Will be watching with keen interest.....Cheers mark
Gremlin56
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2013 - 08:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Because the Senior Officer always goes down with his Ship... Only just came across the Thread. Love it. Will be watching with keen interest.....Cheers mark


Excellent plan Mark, not sure Warren will be overjoyed though He won't float with all those stripes either
Gremlin56
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 01:07 AM UTC
An interesting fact has just cropped up with my choice of the 234 as build: Al Ross's drawing seems to indicate it had 3 rudders at some time or all of it's career. Seems I will have to scratch build a third rudder here
Gremlin56
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 02:12 AM UTC
I have been adding vent and scuttle gaskets to the main deck. The rudders and cavitation plates have been added, (well, two have been added ). The screw shafts have been fitted and I have fitted the barrel and recoil housing to the Oerlikon:








The Griffon PE is of a very varying thickness requiring a lot of force to cut on sheet and bending easily on another. Nice detailing and fit though so no complaints so far
warreni
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 05:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

An interesting fact has just cropped up with my choice of the 234 as build: Al Ross's drawing seems to indicate it had 3 rudders at some time or all of it's career. Seems I will have to scratch build a third rudder here


Dig a little deeper Julian and you will find the third rudder is not at the back but the PE device sitting about half way from the nose to the stern, the small triangular fitting there. Saved you there...
Gremlin56
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 05:20 AM UTC
No you didn't, Al Ross supplied a drawing of the 234 and the ship has 3 cavitation plates and 3 rudders. I am still puzzling this out, (taking some time, not due to the excellent Steinbeck Chardonnay I just had to accompany the grilled lamb and salad).
warreni
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 05:38 AM UTC
Yes I did as it is a fourth rudder, not a third rudder.
Gremlin56
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 05:51 AM UTC
A rudder is a device used to steer a ship, boat, submarine, hovercraft, aircraft, or other conveyance that moves through a medium (generally air or water). On an aircraft the rudder is used primarily to counter adverse yaw and p-factor and is not the primary control used to turn the airplane. A rudder operates by redirecting the fluid past the hull or fuselage, thus imparting a turning or yawing motion to the craft. In basic form, a rudder is a flat plane or sheet of material attached with hinges to the craft's stern, tail, or after end. Often rudders are shaped so as to minimize hydrodynamic or aerodynamic drag. On simple watercraft, a tiller—essentially, a stick or pole acting as a lever arm—may be attached to the top of the rudder to allow it to be turned by a helmsman. In larger vessels, cables, pushrods, or hydraulics may be used to link rudders to steering wheels. In typical aircraft, the rudder is operated by pedals via mechanical linkages or hydraulics.

The little shark fin stuck underneath the Vosper and the MAS is to improve directional stability at speed and not to steer the boat, hence 3 rudders


P.s. I will be sending pepper and salt to the sharks at surfers paradise to season their meal
warreni
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 06:04 AM UTC
{age 48 of 'Vosper MTBs In Action' says, and I quote, "The centre rudder mounted on the keel of this 1943 Contract 1 MTB operated with the two stern mounted rudders to reduce the boat's turning circle."... And why would you go to the trouble of installing a third rudder at the stern when all you had to do was increase the size of the two existing rudders if you want to improve turn rates? I know some MTBs built under licence in the USA had a third rudder but they also had a completely different exhaust system.
Gremlin56
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 06:17 AM UTC
This is very interesting Warren, I have sent a PM to Al Ross to see if he can provide further info on this subject. This was completely new to me and proves that the 234 is a very unusual Vosper...................
I'll cancel the seasoning for the sharks mate, I would miss the discussions
Cheers,
warreni
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 09:18 AM UTC
Time for another update..
Finished placing the surrounds for the skylight portholes and air vents..


Here are some pictures just illustrating the quality of the Griffon PE..




Note the relief etching.
Then we have the construction of the forward mast (or whatever the term is)..
First up here is the un-PEed plastic..

Then we remove a few moulded on parts..

Sorry but I didn't take any pictures of the rest of the preparation so [lease follow the description. After that we attach some replacement PE brackets then manufacture some new stays from brass rod. The rod is cut to length then you crimp the ens to form the brackets at each end of the rod after annealing it. Glue some more PE brackets to the deck, the mast into its plastic holder and then the manufactured stays into their brackets and to the mast and you end up with this..

Now there needs to be some bracing wires and some other cables attached but I can't do that until I paint the mast and stays.
Sorry I forgot the other pictures. maybe Mr Julian can take some when he makes his.
This is the last update from me until next Friday as I am taking my Wife away for the week to Surfers Paradise again. Time shares are good when you have no money to pay for accommodation.
Cheers
Warren
(RAAF Retired)
TheModeller
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 12:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This is very interesting Warren, I have sent a PM to Al Ross to see if he can provide further info on this subject. This was completely new to me and proves that the 234 is a very unusual Vosper...................
I'll cancel the seasoning for the sharks mate, I would miss the discussions
Cheers,


MTB 234 was built under contract to Vospers by Berthtons in Lymington to the standard Vosper design in May of 1942. I've got a single pic of 234 in overall dark grey and she appears identical to the design supplied in the kit.

A later batch of boats (347 to 362) introduced the third steering rudder slaved to the existing starboard rudder and added to provide stabilty and better handling with the uprated Packard engines fitted to the later boats.

Al's drawing is reproduced in Lamberts Allied Torpedo Boats but I don't think its right. I've never found any mention of the third rudder being retro-fitted to earlier boats as they had less powerful engines.

That said, plenty of people have built this kit up as MTB234 and all seem to have followed Al's drawing and added a third rudder.
RogerEP
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 02:25 PM UTC
Hi Guys,

I've noticed some interest in a couple of Russian boats, have you thought about card models?

The link below should take you to the BK 1125 boat ---

http://www.papermodelstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_31_34&products_id=4480

This one should show the G-5 MTB ---

http://www.papermodelstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_31_34&products_id=4505

If the links don't quite come up then go 'Paper Model Store', then click on 'New current' then 'Ships' then 'WW2 ships', these are far far cheaper than resin kits. OK they are paper models but you have the opportunity to rescale the parts pages to whatever scale takes your fancy.

The coastal forces models I build are card models initially being rescaled to 1/144th scale with a lot of weapons and deck fittings and crew figures resin castings and the railings, masts etc in brass. I did produce a Fairmile B class ML as a resin kit/model but I'm now seriously considering doing future kits largely in brass, not sure yet but I'm liking the idea more and more.

Cheers,
Roger P.
Bendigo, Australia.
surfsup
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 06:14 PM UTC
Very nice work you are doing Julien. Don't worry about the Seasoning, A friend of mine lives down the Coast and will provide the Seasoning Free of Charge......
Longshanks8
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 - 08:24 PM UTC
Hi Julian,
I'm with you on this, definitely 3 rudders at the stern.

I've copied the relevant plan from John Lamberts & Al Ross excellent 'Allied Coastal Forces of World War II Vol 2 '



It also shows the small steering vane directly under the fore end of the bridge.

Hope this helps,

Enjoying your builds/bickering

Cheers Kev

Gremlin56
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 04:46 AM UTC
Thanks Les and Kev for the input, seems to be a hung jury on the 3rd rudder issue. I must confess the idea of scratching up a third rudder seems rather attractive though.
Maybe you can answer the question of the magic midships fin: is it movable extra rudder or is fixed to add course stabilty when the boat is running at speed? I find it hard to believe that the MAS had a moveable fin under the keel while the stern rudders were moved by a makeshift cable system.
What do you think?
Gremlin56
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 04:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Guys,

I've noticed some interest in a couple of Russian boats, have you thought about card models?

The link below should take you to the BK 1125 boat ---

http://www.papermodelstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_31_34&products_id=4480

This one should show the G-5 MTB ---

http://www.papermodelstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_31_34&products_id=4505

If the links don't quite come up then go 'Paper Model Store', then click on 'New current' then 'Ships' then 'WW2 ships', these are far far cheaper than resin kits. OK they are paper models but you have the opportunity to rescale the parts pages to whatever scale takes your fancy.

The coastal forces models I build are card models initially being rescaled to 1/144th scale with a lot of weapons and deck fittings and crew figures resin castings and the railings, masts etc in brass. I did produce a Fairmile B class ML as a resin kit/model but I'm now seriously considering doing future kits largely in brass, not sure yet but I'm liking the idea more and more.

Cheers,
Roger P.
Bendigo, Australia.


Thanks for the links Roger, I don't think I will be taking that route but it is possible to build a really detailed model using paper. I am still very impressed with the "Polish Paper Bismark" that Wojtek brought to our attention on the Bismark thread.
RogerEP
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 10:38 AM UTC
Hello again Gents,

A coupla more observations/questions ---

Sean (Fordboy), I cannot find any reference to a PE set from Eduard?? Their website doesn't list it at all, unless of course I'm blind in one eye and can't see out t'other.

Julian, You can find numerous copies of "The Ship Killers" series, vols I-IX through 'bookfinder dot com'. I only had a quick look but the prices do seem reasonable, I guess the ideal thing would be get some/all the books from the same bookseller to save on postage with said postage costs seem to be quite expensive out of the US compared to say the UK.

Les, yes nothing yet from Italeri re crew figures (future release under cat#5616 with Hannants pricing them at 17.50 GBP) which I find a tad odd given they quickly produced figures for their PT boats/S Boat/MAS boat. There are some available from U-Models and Wee Friends, the problem here is who actually stocks them?

Roger P.
DanielMoscatelli
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 02:14 PM UTC
While in the opposite decree they continue with problems of helms ......









Please continues solving the topic of the helms....

regards Daniel
TAFFY3
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 02:53 PM UTC
There are some available from U-Models and Wee Friends, the problem here is who actually stocks them? [Quoted text}

Roger, The 'Wee Friends' can be gotten directly from Friendship Models in the UK, and The Red Lancers in the US of A stocks U-Models figures. I've dealt with both and have no complaints. I also ordered three RN types from Azimut of France. Two were fine but the third came with the wrong arms and no heads. Numerous e-mails to Azimut produced few responses and no satisfaction. Order from them at your own risk.
Al
TheModeller
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 02:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe you can answer the question of the magic midships fin: is it movable extra rudder or is fixed to add course stabilty when the boat is running at speed? I find it hard to believe that the MAS had a moveable fin under the keel while the stern rudders were moved by a makeshift cable system.
What do you think?


The keel fin is actually a rudder, it was added from the 1940 contract boats onward to reduce the vessels turning circle and was also fitted to the late war Type I and Type II boats as well.

The third rudder at the stern only gets a mention on pp31 of Lamberts 'Allied Torpedo Boats'. It was a modification of the basic design incorporated in the 1942 programme, boats 347 to 362 "Now fitted with three rudders to improve the turning circle."

Some 32 boats were built to this design under lend-lease in the US and may have incorporated a third rudder at the stern but written references and pictures of the installation are rare!
TAFFY3
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 02:59 PM UTC
Hello Daniel, that is looking real good. Gotta love the lines of the S-Boote, just looks so predatory. Can't wait to see more. Al
surfsup
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 - 08:01 PM UTC
Ditto. Daniel you are doing a lovely job on her.....Cheers mark
Gremlin56
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Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 06:18 AM UTC
Nice work on the flying bridge and wheelhouse Daniel. looks good already and I know there is much, much more to come.
I guess you will still be blinding off the engineroom portholes on the air intakes?
Cheers,
Julian
Gremlin56
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Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 06:21 AM UTC
I have taken the plunge and added a third stern rudder, accurate or not. I'll get photos up when the conecting rod between the starboard and center rudder is fitted.
That mid-keel rudder bugs me no end, seems to small and in the wrong position to do any good to me.
 _GOTOTOP